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Thread: Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by mot View Post
    Patrick was still head and shoulders above the others in the competition in all departments. It was as if he had skated on different ice from the others. If Nan Song had won simply because he did not fall, I think it would have been scandalous and would have made me doubt what 'figure skating' would stand for.
    I totally agree. Chan was the rightful winner in my mind.

  2. #212
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    In 2007, Joubert's LP had no elements with a negative GOE. His BV wasn't very high - partly because of spin levels - but it wasn't embarrassingly low, and he won with a good skate, not a messy performance. As Evangeline noted, he skated a great SP, with a 4-3, high levels on spins and steps, and only a minor mistake, and he was totally selling it. Leaving aside Stephane's SP performance, Dai had no quad, a UR call, and lower spin levels than Joubert. I'd say that Brian deserved his lead, and certainly did enough to win: it was classic CoP, go with a layout you can skate well and get good GOEs.
    Joubert did deserve a solid lead after the SP (although the downgrade rules back then were too harsh, so I don't think they objectively should have been separated as much as they were) but honestly Takahashi's PCS alone in the LP deserved to more than cover the gap, IMO. Then we have to add in that Takahashi had more technical merit in his LP as well. It's a pretty clear case for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I agree about the Poeta PCS thing; the 2007 Worlds version, in my mind, is one of the greatest performances in the history of CoP. The passion, the vigor, and the sheer artistic abandon Lambiel displayed was astounding to watch. Sublime choreography too. Plus, he also managed to land a good 3A and a 4T-2T-2T, which is just the cherry on top of the whole thing.

    Not sure about the silver medal though....Lambiel deserves credit for ditching that weird yodelling SP in favour of Blood Diamond, but falling on the 3A and having only a 3T-2T combo is kind of embarrassing for a senior male skater of Lambiel's calibre. Joubert deserved the big lead from the SP.
    Yeah, Lambiel's jump content in the SP was quite poor. In terms of the spins, footwork, and program it was still superb, though, so that helps.

    It's difficult to gauge between both programs because Lambiel's LP performance was tremendously masterful. I honestly think his PCS should have been 15 points higher than Joubert's LP performance...that's really huge. Lambiel's tech was better than Joubert's as well. Even though he had more mistakes, his jump layout was more difficult, the spins were infinitely better, and the footwork was better.

    It really would suck for Joubert to place 1st in the SP and do relatively well in the LP and then be overtaken by someone who had such a flawed SP, but if I'm scoring the numbers accurately that's really how I probably would have had it in the end (it would definitely be close). Joubert gave a lackluster performance with a lackluster program, despite being clean, and Lambiel delivered one of the best performances ever.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    As for quads and footwork, AFAIK the first skater to have level 4 footwork and a 4-3 in the same program was Plushenko. The next one, I believe, was... Evan Lysacek. It's now easier to get level 4 on step sequences than it was in the past; if I'm not mistaken, there were level 4s given on the JGP, and Viktoria Helgesson got one at TEB this weekend, and she's not exactly renowned for her footwork, is she?
    It is NOT easier to achieve Level 4 footwork now than it was in 2006 when Plushenko did it. In fact, it is much more difficult today to get Level 4 footwork than it was in 2006 when Plushenko did it. The requirements for Level 4 footwork and spins have become increasingly more difficult since CoP was introduced.

  4. #214
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Interestingly enough. You never hear anything but praise from Chans competitors about his skating. Now take Nan Song. Great jumps. Good edges. He watches Chan and sees that it is possible if he works hard on pcs's to improve his performance. New choreographer. Hard work. Now the landscape is changing.
    Last edited by havefun; 11-21-2011 at 07:48 AM.

  5. #215
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Off the top of my head, Lambiel's spins, Browning's performance, versatility, and comedic talents (but then Patrick hasn't had much time to build repertoire or artistry yet), Swayer's flexibility, Takahashi's soulfulness and flamboyance, various skaters' quads other than 4T, Beacom's creativity and plain craziness, etc.
    Except for Takahashi, I think that is a cute answer cause I thought Buttercup meant contemporary skaters, otherwise Dick Button wins them all!
    Last edited by seniorita; 11-21-2011 at 08:25 AM.

  6. #216
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    As for quads and footwork, AFAIK the first skater to have level 4 footwork and a 4-3 in the same program was Plushenko. The next one, I believe, was... Evan Lysacek.
    No it was Takahashi before Evan.

  7. #217
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    No it was Takahashi before Evan.
    Are you certain? Evan did it at the 2007-8 GPF, and I must say that I can't recall Dai landing many 4-3s before or after that. I do believe Dai was one of the first skaters to get a level 4, if not the first.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    The solution is not to tweak the goe on a fall. The solution is to give zero to a fall but increase the base value for a successful attempt.
    That won't work. The result will be rewarding the more technical skaters who are probably artistically blind. Skaters like Song will be winning a lot more times over Patrick Chan, and skaters like Takahashi and Kozuka will have no chance to win what so ever. Is that what you wanted? That'll truly be called "jumping competitions".

    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    To be honest with you, I have no problem with Kevin winning more competitions if he can lands all those jumps cleanly. Those are hard elements. The truth is that he was no where near medal positions if he was unable to land those jumps cleanly.
    That is supposed or intended to be because without those hard jumps, Kevin's programs had little to offer. Both Kevins. Especially Reynolds. I know you meant VDP. VDP was slow. I mean SLOW. He's amazing having been able to stay on the upper layer of the elite skaters for so long, but that was where he's supposed to be, not higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    The pcs is almost fixed. What's the point to have 50% of your final score being predetermined anyway?
    I'm interested in where you get this number and the idea?

    One need to study closely on PCS scores before reach the conclusion about "fixed PCS". Where the number 50% came from? PCS is only 30%.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    The thing is that with Chan's performance, unless it's flawless or nearly so in which case it is breath-takingly amazing, there is always an immediate and heated focus on the mistakes and no attention is paid to the rest of the program and the total performance. The impression is then formed that it is mistake-ridden and a mess, which is far from the truth. On re-viewing, it is often a relief to realize that it is not quite that bad, and then the appriciation can begin. His programs are so rich and full of beautiful moments and amazing manuevers that even with a few errors, there is still so much left to appreciate and enjoy. I guess the scoring reflects this fact too. He has so much that he can afford to lose some. When he is on, likely later in the season, then the marks go through the roof.
    Which in turn proved that the judges did have valuable training and skillfully giving out the results in a few minutes. Chan's scores in relation to the rest of the field were largely justified under current system.


    ETA:

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    There IS something wrong with a system where a skater falls multiple times in a FS and still gets SS and PE in the mid to upper 8s.

    If the skater is all that skilled, one would think falls would be a rare thing instead of commonplace at every event.
    Walking on both edges would guarantee not to fall. Is that called skilled? Chan was pushing the edge limits all the time. I'd say his falls were rare, very rare in fact, with the deep edges he's been exercising in his entire programs. Should we penalize the falls (I mean other than one point deduction from the fall) to reduce the boundary pushing on footworks? I don't think so.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-21-2011 at 10:24 AM.

  9. #219
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I'm interested in where you get this number and the idea?

    One need to study closely on PCS scores before reach the conclusion about "fixed PCS". Where the number 50% came from? PCS is only 30%.
    I am pretty sure that PCSs are, by intention, 50% of the total, sometimes more or less depending on the skater and the performance.

    In this contest (LP) it was

    Chan : TES 72.30, PCS 85.14
    Song: TES 79.93, PCS 67.64
    Rippon: TES 70.04, PCS 74,80.

    I think that the PCS multipliers for men and for women are designed to keep this 50-50 ratio as close as possible.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I am pretty sure that PCSs are, by intention, 50% of the total, sometimes more or less depending on the skater and the performance.

    In this contest (LP) it was

    Chan : TES 72.30, PCS 85.14
    Song: TES 79.93, PCS 67.64
    Rippon: TES 70.04, PCS 74,80.

    I think that the PCS multipliers for men and for women are designed to keep this 50-50 ratio as close as possible.
    Ooops! Thanks! Mathman! Go to sit in the corner and timeout myself, then go to study more about PCS.

  11. #221
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think he just wants to do the quad flip. Who wouldn't? Since there is no real downside to failing, Bob's your uncle.
    I think he said the 4F was easier on his bad knee than the 4T....

  12. #222
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Are you certain? Evan did it at the 2007-8 GPF, and I must say that I can't recall Dai landing many 4-3s before or after that. I do believe Dai was one of the first skaters to get a level 4, if not the first.
    I thought we were talking about who got level 4, and I remember that Daisuke and Plushenko got level 4 in the season of Torino Olys, the first in Sl and the other in Ci. You meant who landed a 4-3 and a level 4?

  13. #223
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I thought we were talking about who got level 4, and I remember that Daisuke and Plushenko got level 4 in the season of Torino Olys, the first in Sl and the other in Ci. You meant who landed a 4-3 and a level 4?
    Well, that's what makes it hard, isn't it? To do both in the same program... clearly Plushy was the true pioneer when it came to quads and footwork, and his place in history must be acknowledged!

    Doris mentioned once that the first American skater to get a level 4 on footwork was Charlie White when he was still skating singles, but I don't know if it was in an international competition.

  14. #224
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Great twisting turning thread.

    I agree with whoever said the best skaters are the best PCS skaters and they should win. I don't want FS to be just a jumping contest, and I'm glad Chan beat Song.

    I think what I want is for Chan and his team to stop trying to crush, rather than just defeat, the competition. One quad or 4-3 is fine in this field, he doesn't need two. If he thins out his programs just a little we'll see him with fewer falls and his winning programs (and scores) will be universally applauded. This is exactly what happened with Carolina, for different reasons of course. Plus, there would be a trickle down effect as other skaters will generally do just enough to try to win. I don't want to see a whole comp turn into a splatfest either.

    I'm really puzzled as to why Patrick would keep his program intact when skating sick.

    It seems Patrick is skating for the record books and to be dominant, not just winning. But the result is mixed. I love the guy but I want to see him skating clean!

    Maybe there should be a COP "clean skate" bonus.

    To conclude my COP soapbox, I'll add parenthetically that I would like to see whatever has caused the current rash of one-footed footwork changed. A little of it goes a long way for me.

    Whoever listed the areas that Patrick is not the best in forgot the flying sit. (Still over my last post on this topic.) It seems everyone has to do them this year and most of the guys do it better than he does.

  15. #225
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    I believe in the near future, China will rise in singles skating. Chinese take everything seriously. Any area they are behind, they'd study and aim the best in the world and invest at all cost and work hard to fill that gap.

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