Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The point is not to stop Patrick from winning. The point is to come up with a scoring system that is more in tune with our intuition about what constitutes a good skating performance.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
It's not just this one skater. I have some (not all) sympathies with PoodlePal (maybe in part because I'm a "poodle pal" too!). I'm wondering if the additive nature of COP is to blame. As long as the score rewards "more," skaters will add all they can, even to the point of "more" than they can handle. Hence the falls.

Anyway, chuckm, Chan's last season was brilliant. He doesn't necessarily fall in every event and he was sick this weekend. Let's see how he does later in the season. To me this isn't mainly (or at least not just) a Chan thing but an overly-tricky program/system thing.

And I'm not denying that beautiful programs have come out of COP. Jeremy's and Daisuke's programs alone this season are proof of that. Choreographers ETA: and skaters! can be geniuses. But you have to wade through a lot of dullness and mistakes to get to those beauties.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
It's not just this one skater. I have some (not all) sympathies with PoodlePal (maybe in part because I'm a "poodle pal" too!). I'm wondering if the additive nature of COP is to blame. As long as the score rewards "more," skaters will add all they can, even to the point of "more" than they can handle. Hence the falls.

And I'm not denying that beautiful programs have come out of COP. Jeremy's and Daisuke's programs alone this season are proof of that. Choreographers can be geniuses. But you have to wade through a lot of dullness and mistakes to get to those beauties.

You see, I actually think more beautiful programs have come out of COP. Restrictions force creativity.
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
ITA with that. I've posted quotes by Stravinsky here to that effect. I remember reading about conversations between Balanchine and Stravinsky, when they were collaborating on a new ballet, where B. would say, "Give me about 2 minutes," and S. would say, "Do you want 2 mins. 10 seconds or 1 min. 59 seconds?" (This is a very rough account. Actually it may have been related to a ballet for baby elephants!)

That's the perplexing thing about COP. It has a lot to brag about as well as a lot of neuralgic issues.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
And I'm not denying that beautiful programs have come out of COP. Jeremy's and Daisuke's programs alone this season are proof of that. Choreographers can be geniuses. But you have to wade through a lot of dullness and mistakes to get to those beauties.

6.0 produced mostly dull programs too but it's the beautiful ones we remember. With CoP, it's more challenging to have both beauty and athletism.

Isn't it clear that the best programs are performed by the high PCS skaters? To think someone wants to punish or discourage them by reducing the weight of PCS! The zeal to stop Chan from winning sometimes can be blinding.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
The point is not to stop Patrick from winning. The point is to come up with a scoring system that is more in tune with our intuition about what constitutes a good skating performance.

More quads, less footwork? "Cause that is what recent changes are about.

Now the point I was addressing was the proposal to reduce PCS's weight in scoring the performance, while voiding all fallen jumps with zero points. What kind of intuitively recognized good perfromances will that produce?
 
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havefun

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Just watched Chan. Thinking about the other men. Dai Abbott etc. It looks like everyone is designing programs including Chan to push the envelope technically and pcs wise. This has to be good for the sport right? Playing it safe as a male skater doesn't seem to be a winning strategy anymore. Apart from the jumps some of the moves, edges and performing are awesome.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Just watched Chan. Thinking about the other men. Dai Abbott etc. It looks like everyone is designing programs including Chan to push the envelope technically and pcs wise. This has to be good for the sport right? Playing it safe as a male skater doesn't seem to be a winning strategy anymore. Apart from the jumps some of the moves, edges and performing are awesome.

Exactly.

Before Chan, it was either quads or footwork. He raised the bar for the sport and showed the possibilities.

Just wait for the new wave of youngsters coming up, including those from the unexpected nation of China.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
As to Chan, I notice that he did a 3A in the SP, but not in the FS, whereas Song, who also executed a 4T and a 4T+3T, was brave enough to include a 3A in his FS. A male champion should be brave enough not to have to choose between attempting quad jumping and attempting the triple axel. He should be brave enough to try both in the same free programme.

What made you think that Patrick wasn't brave enough to try 3A and quad in the same free program?!:confused: Patrick planned two quads, one in combo, and one 3A in his LP. He actually went as planned. Notice the open leg in the air when he did that first 2A? That was supposed to be 3A. But something went wrong in the air. He wasn't able to finish 3 turns. So he openned his leg and only did a 2A. Are falls the only measure to show skaters bravery?

I went and rewatched it. For me, it's off from the get go. Watch his opening move. It's a simple, elegant maneuver that signifies his intention: calm speed, controlled passion. At the Japan Open and SC, it's startlingly fast and surprisingly expressive. At TEB, it's less so (full disclosure: I have HD video of the JO and SC performances, but not of the TEB). But the double axel was wonky, of course and the fall during the footwork devastating. At that point, he fell behind the music and struggled to catch up. The death drop spin, so wonderful when timed with the flourish and generally so huge, was less so here. Now, I will say I understated his fight. Landing the triple loop, with that brief entry, was impressive (the loop is his second weakest jump, after the triple axel). He clearly put all of himself into those quads. It's not the worst he's ever skated, but it felt like it.

I agree with you: this program is a masterpiece. I truly believe that when skated clean, I will consider it one of the all time great programs (according to me).

SF, I want him to be bored with "Take Five," actually. I want him to stop keeping programs (and I want him to explore other choreographers, but whatever).

I partially agree with you. You know what? It was off from the get go at SC too since I also have used JO's standard to measure both his performances at SC and TEB. His JO performance was artistically the best of all three times he's done so far. At there, his openning moves made me a fan of this program in first a few seconds. It was pretty magical. I agree he looked tired at TEB in both his SP and LP. He didn't have his ustual energy and attack as he had in SC. However, this weakened Patrick was still pretty powerful. I bet if Abbott or Kozuka has had this level of energy in his programs, it'd be viewed as great. But not in Patrick's because people were used to see Patrick had more attacks and powers. This time he was certainly lack of it. But he did fight very hard for it to the end. Each time he made mistake, he quickly recovered and put the mistake behind and focused on the next movement and element. Yes, I've noticed he fell behind of the music on death drop. But he gradually caught up. Apart from a few unfortunate jumps and an ugly fall from footworks, he's maintained the artistic level in general. In another word, he did not lose much PCS, though he did lose some. I have no problem on the PCS he's got.

If he skated this program clean, I, too, will consider it one of the all time great programs. I will cherrish this program like I've been cherrishing Alexei Yagudin's many programs.:yes:

And I, too, hope that he could have dumped "Take Five" which I've never liked much. I wouldn't mind him keeping Aranjuez. But generally, I don't like skaters keeping their programs.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I'm sure skaters like Stephane Lambiel and pre-knee injury Daisuke Takahashi, both of whom had quads and excellent footwork, would beg to differ.

Then there would not have been the Olympic controversy. And some Worlds controveries. They had not been able to do both well in the same program. It wasn't necessary then. Some one, like Joubert, would win with quads and some, like Buttle, would win with skating. Takahashi won without a quad.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Then there would not have been the Olympic controversy. And some Worlds controveries. They had not been able to do both well in the same program. It wasn't necessary then. Some one, like Joubert, would win with quads and some, like Buttle, would win with skating. Takahashi won without a quad.

That's because both Lambiel and Takahashi were injured/recovering from severe injuries by the time the Vancouver Olympics rolled around. They had been able to do both quads and footwork well in the same program in the past--e.g. 2006 Worlds for Lambiel, 2008 4CC for Takahashi, 2007 Worlds LP for both--though I recall Takahashi's quad in his LP in Tokyo was not quite so perfect, but it was landed and given full credit with only a little negative GOE.

As for Worlds and controversies, well, like Chan at TEB this weekend, Lambiel and Takahashi had their bad days, and for them, it so happened to have occurred at a World championships (2007 Worlds SP, 2008 Worlds as a whole for both of them, I guess).

But no offence, saying Chan is the first to combine the ability to do quads and quality footwork is tantamount to re-writing skating history.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I just went to watch Lambiel's Championship winning LPs. He really was an all round skater. Exquisite spins, beautiful footwork and jumps including quads. He is forever one of my all time favorites, jumps or no jumps. However, the step sequences were not quite the same standard as today, shorter and simpler. The jump entries were typical too, with cross cuts to build up speed and long glides into the jumps. Mind you, his cross cuts and gliding are a beautiful sight to see. But technically, his programs were quite a bit less demanding than a winning program of today.

I am sure if he were 20 today, he would be one of the very top all round skaters with the highest levels of footwork, transitions and jumps. But it was a little less demanding then. He won with flawed performances too.

Whatever the timing of physical conditions of any skater, Chan's 2011 Worlds win was historical and convincing, with little comprise in any aspect of the highest level of skating. The impact on the standard of skating was immediate, building up even before Worlds. This is not rewriting history.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Different rules/requirements at the time, different step sequences. But the quality is still evident even today. Lambiel's Poeta step sequence, in my mind, is one of the most memorable step sequences ever. Takahashi's step sequence in in his Phantom sent the audience in near-complete hysterics when he finished--I watched it live on TV in 2007 and I still remember how it sent chills up my spine.

Also, I never said the impact of Chan's 2011 Worlds win was re-writing history. He skated magnificently and deserved the world title by a country mile; I'm sure it pushed many skaters to up their level of skating. My original objection was to your statement "Before Chan, it was either quads or footwork," which, as I pointed out, was inaccurate given what Lambiel and Takahashi had accomplished long before Chan added the quad to his repertoire of elements.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I sometimes appreciate Chan's flawed performance more on replay than live because his errors tend to be perceived in exageration by fans taken back by unexpected mistakes and by distractors ready to magnify them.

So true! It took me three times rewatching his TEB LP before I reached my conclusion which I have posted in response to Pogue's first post regarding this performance.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Different rules/requirements at the time, different step sequences. But the quality is still evident even today. Lambiel's Poeta step sequence, in my mind, is one of the most memorable step sequences ever. Takahashi's step sequence in in his Phantom sent the audience in near-complete hysterics when he finished--I watched it live on TV in 2007 and I still remember how it sent chills up my spine.

Also, I never said the impact of Chan's 2011 Worlds win was re-writing history. He skated magnificently and deserved the world title by a country mile; I'm sure it pushed many skaters to up their level of skating. My original objection was to your statement "Before Chan, it was either quads or footwork," which, as I pointed out, was inaccurate given what Lambiel and Takahashi had accomplished long before Chan added the quad to his repertoire of elements.
Poeta was a magnificent program, and while Stephane never skated it completely mistake-free, I kind of use it to this day as a measuring stick for skaters' scores - that got higher PCS than Poeta? Better IN?

As for quads and footwork, AFAIK the first skater to have level 4 footwork and a 4-3 in the same program was Plushenko. The next one, I believe, was... Evan Lysacek. It's now easier to get level 4 on step sequences than it was in the past; if I'm not mistaken, there were level 4s given on the JGP, and Viktoria Helgesson got one at TEB this weekend, and she's not exactly renowned for her footwork, is she?

I would be curious to see if SF feels there is any area in which any skater is superior to Patrick Chan (not including spirals, which he doesn't do).
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Yeah, it was definitely more difficult to get a level 4 step sequence back in the day, much more so than it was now. I think Caro Kostner was the first lady to get a level 4 step sequence in around...2007, was it? It was a pretty significant thing when it happened.

PCS marking was also very different too, and quite wonky in the first few years of CoP. But for awhile, 7s were absolutely top-shelf marks reserved for the top skaters. Getting 8s and 9s was literally unimaginable, lol. It seems crazy today that Lambiel's Poeta only received 7s in 2007, but if Lambiel, as the reigning world champion, had skated Poeta the way he did in Tokyo Worlds at the Vancouver Olympics, he obviously would have received high 8s and 9s in the context of more contemporary scoring practices.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I would be curious to see if SF feels there is any area in which any skater is superior to Patrick Chan (not including spirals, which he doesn't do).

Off the top of my head, Lambiel's spins, Browning's performance, versatility, and comedic talents (but then Patrick hasn't had much time to build repertoire or artistry yet), Swayer's flexibility, Takahashi's soulfulness and flamboyance, various skaters' quads other than 4T, Beacom's creativity and plain craziness, etc.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
So true! It took me three times rewatching his TEB LP before I reached my conclusion which I have posted in response to Pogue's first post regarding this performance.

The thing is that with Chan's performance, unless it's flawless or nearly so in which case it is breath-takingly amazing, there is always an immediate and heated focus on the mistakes and no attention is paid to the rest of the program and the total performance. The impression is then formed that it is mistake-ridden and a mess, which is far from the truth. On re-viewing, it is often a relief to realize that it is not quite that bad, and then the appriciation can begin. His programs are so rich and full of beautiful moments and amazing manuevers that even with a few errors, there is still so much left to appreciate and enjoy. I guess the scoring reflects this fact too. He has so much that he can afford to lose some. When he is on, likely later in the season, then the marks go through the roof.
 
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