Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
They had not been able to do both well in the same program. It wasn't necessary then. Some one, like Joubert, would win with quads and some, like Buttle, would win with skating.

Ok, I felt I should address this point with more clarification.

It was important even back then to have both quads and footwork (....or actual, well-choreographed programs), particularly if you look at the larger context of Joubert and Buttle's world titles.

Joubert actually lost the long program in 2007 Worlds to both Lambiel and Takahashi. And it wasn't by razor-thin margins either--Takahashi had won the LP by about 6 points. The reason why Joubert won the gold overall was because Lambiel and Takahashi both botched their short programs, especially Lambiel, who skated dreadfully in terms of jumps. Joubert skated cleanly in the SP and decently enough in the LP and was thus able to hang onto his lead overall. If Takahashi and Lambiel didn't screw up in the short, they definitely would have beat Joubert soundly. It's also interesting that neither Lambiel or Takahashi were completely perfect in their LPs as well, but they still beat Joubert nonetheless (though admittedly, Joubert had watered down his LP somewhat). But 2006 Worlds, in my opinion, had already established the writing on the wall for Joubert vs. Lambiel--though both had quads, the judges were going to go for the more complete skater if they both skated well: Lambiel. In the LP, Joubert skated perfectly, while Lambiel had no triple axel and two-footed a jump--yet Lambiel still won.

As for Buttle's world title, it definitely wasn't clear during that season that a quadless man could even win the world title. Lambiel had been skating quite sloppily all season (but still with quads) but the judges had been scoring him quite generously nonetheless (e.g. 2007 GPF). Takahashi, meanwhile, was coming to Worlds after the breaking the world record at the 2008 4CC with 2 quads in his LP, completely thrashing silver medallist Buttle (and bronze medallist Lysacek, for that matter) there by literally 30 points. However, both Takahashi and Lambiel melted down in the LP at 2008 Worlds (additionally, Takahashi also Zayaked himself out of contention) and Buttle had been able to skate cleanly and take advantage. However, if you look at the way Takahashi and Lambiel were being scored that season, it was clear that Buttle would not have won the world title if Lambiel and Takahashi had been anywhere near decent in Goteborg.

Of course, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Joubert and Buttle deserved their world titles given what transpired, but it was Takahashi and Lambiel's lack of consistency that smoothed the way. If you really wanted to control your own destiny and win the gold back then, you would have showed up with both quads and footwork, like now. All things considered, it was clear that Takahashi and Lambiel were the judges' favourites and were going to win if they skated anywhere near decently (or in Lambiel's case at the 2007 GPF, even if he wasn't so decent)....but they, of course, didn't always.

What really changed the playing field were the events of fall 2008, when Takahashi severely injured himself and had to sit out for an entire season, while Lambiel abruptly retired after leaving Peter Grutter. After the two main guys with both quads and footwork were out of the picture...well, imagine how the playing field would look like now if both Chan and Takahashi (or Kozuka, I guess) suddenly retired.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Yeah, it was definitely more difficult to get a level 4 step sequence back in the day, much more so than it was now. I think Caro Kostner was the first lady to get a level 4 step sequence in around...2007, was it? It was a pretty significant thing when it happened.

PCS marking was also very different too, and quite wonky in the first few years of CoP. But for awhile, 7s were absolutely top-shelf marks reserved for the top skaters. Getting 8s and 9s was literally unimaginable, lol. It seems crazy today that Lambiel's Poeta only received 7s in 2007, but if Lambiel, as the reigning world champion, had skated Poeta the way he did in Tokyo Worlds at the Vancouver Olympics, he obviously would have received high 8s and 9s in the context of more contemporary scoring practices.
Carolina was the first lady to get level 4 - I think it was at 2007 NHK, and the program would have been her fabulous Damky Trio LP.

I think you're right about Poeta.

Off the top of my head, Lambiel's spins, Browning's performance, versatility, and comedic talents (but then Patrick hasn't had much time to build repertoire or artistry yet), Swayer's flexibility, Takahashi's soulfulness and flamboyance, various skaters' quads other than 4T, Beacom's creativity and plain craziness, etc.
Thanks for sharing! I think it's probably also safe to add Jonathan Cassar's spread eagles, right?

Ok, I felt I should address this point with more clarification.

It was important even back then to have both quads and footwork (....or actual, well-choreographed programs), particularly if you look at the larger context of Joubert and Buttle's world titles.

Joubert actually lost the long program in 2007 Worlds to both Lambiel and Takahashi. And it wasn't by razor-thin margins either--Takahashi had won the LP by about 6 points. The reason why Joubert won the gold overall was because Lambiel and Takahashi both botched their short programs, especially Lambiel, who skated dreadfully in terms of jumps. Joubert skated cleanly in the SP and decently enough in the LP and was thus able to hang onto his lead overall. If Takahashi and Lambiel didn't screw up in the short, they definitely would have beat Joubert soundly. It's also interesting that neither Lambiel or Takahashi were completely perfect in their LPs as well, but they still beat Joubert nonetheless (though admittedly, Joubert had watered down his LP somewhat). But 2006 Worlds, in my opinion, had already established the writing on the wall for Joubert vs. Lambiel--though both had quads, the judges were going to go for the more complete skater if they both skated well: Lambiel. In the LP, Joubert skated perfectly, while Lambiel had no triple axel and two-footed a jump--yet Lambiel still won.

Of course, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Joubert and Buttle deserved their world titles given what transpired, but it was Takahashi and Lambiel's lack of consistency that smoothed the way. If you really wanted to control your own destiny and win the gold back then, you would have showed up with both quads and footwork, like now. All things considered, it was clear that Takahashi and Lambiel were the judges' favourites and were going to win if they skated anywhere near decently (or in Lambiel's case at the 2007 GPF, even if he wasn't so decent)....but they, of course, didn't always.

What really changed the playing field were the events of fall 2008, when Takahashi severely injured himself and had to sit out for an entire season, while Lambiel abruptly retired after leaving Peter Grutter. After the two main guys with both quads and footwork were out of the picture...well, imagine how the playing field would look like now if both Chan and Takahashi (or Kozuka, I guess) suddenly retired.
What won 2006 Worlds for Lambiel was the QR. Under the current format, Joubert's score out of the SP would have been high enough to overcome Stephane's LP margin - as happened in 2007.

Dai's injury was a game changer for sure; a torn ACL is about as serious as it gets. He'll probably never be the skater he was technically, but he compensates for that in other ways. And Buttle's win was a the blueprint for how to win without a quad, so also a really important event. 2008 Worlds had all sorts of unexpected outcomes: Dai Zayaking away a medal, Tomas Verner's Hidden Czech skate, KvdP getting a small medal, Johnny winning his only medal, Stephane off the podium after three straight medals... lots of surprises for sure.

I just want to add, because I know some people were underwhelmed by Joubert's 2007 Worlds LP and disappointed to have a World Champion who was only third in the LP, that Joubert had to make adjustments to the program because he was returning from an injury. In February of that year, he spiked a blade into his foot on a 3Lz attempted and sustained tendon (and possibly ligament?) damage - I think it required surgery, he was off the ice for a while, and couldn't even train lutzes and flips until right before Worlds. He sustained a more serious version of that injury in November 2009, and it completely derailed his Olympic season. (Kurt Browning tweeted that the same thing had happened to him three times - ouch!) Anyway, considering Joubert's occasional headcase tendencies, I'm still amazed that he was able to pull off 2007 Worlds. The pressure, coming in undefeated on the season and knowing that he was not 100% physically, must have been crushing. You can kind of see it when he skates off the ice after the LP - he doesn't look elated, he looks relieved. No singles skater has gone undefeated in a season since then.

Joubert never got a level 4 on footwork (his goal seems to be to get level 3) but AFAIK he scored the highest GOE ever given for a quad in international competition, which is pretty cool. Still, I think it's unfair to characterize him as someone who cares only about the jumps; he's stated otherwise multiple times, and has put a lot of work into other areas of his skating. It's one thing to argue that those things are not his forte, but he's not the one-dimensional skater some suggest.
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Ah, the QR at 2006 Worlds helped, but I think it was pretty telling that Lambiel won the LP nonetheless in Calgary, even if it was by a thin margin over Joubert. Wasn't there some angst about the 2006 Olympic silver medalist and World Champion not being able to land a triple axel properly?

Yeah, in retrospect, 2008 Worlds for men was such a bizarre event. If I recall correctly, almost everyone predicted that Takahashi would win that year. He had the quads, the programs (Cyber Swan!!), the PCS, the footwork, the judges' love, good performances all season....his mistakes and Zayaking came completely out of nowhere. I'm sure many fans' fantasy picks were completely ruined by that. Lambiel, on the other hand...I guess it wasn't entirely surprising that he melted down, given his performances all season. But the degree to which he melted down was kind of surprising. And Tomas' skate! Still painful to watch, especially since he did so well in the short and was the reigning European Champion. I was happy for Buttle, but I definitely had mixed feelings about the whole thing.....

I wasn't really a fan of Joubert's LP in 2007, but his Bond SP was loads of fun and definitely deserved to have a big lead for sure. When Joubert is on, he really does have great charisma and command over the ice and I can understand why the judges were willing to give him good PCS. I have no complaints about Joubert winning worlds in 2007, even with a third-place LP--Lambiel and Takahashi, though great in the long, did themselves in during the SP.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
What won 2006 Worlds for Lambiel was the QR. Under the current format, Joubert's score out of the SP would have been high enough to overcome Stephane's LP margin - as happened in 2007.

Lambiel's 3Axel in the LP was downgraded to a double, whereas with the current rules Lambiel would have received 6 points base value for the slight underrotation on that 3Axel (rather than 3.3 points). So he wins without the QR.

Poeta was a magnificent program, and while Stephane never skated it completely mistake-free, I kind of use it to this day as a measuring stick for skaters' scores - that got higher PCS than Poeta? Better IN?

Specifically his 2007 Worlds LP performance of that program. For me, Lambiel deserved the highest PCS ever in a male CoP program there.

I actually kind of think he even deserved the Silver medal over Joubert (Takahashi clearly deserved Gold overall for me), despite the big jump mistakes in the SP. It was that superior of a performance and one of the most difficult ever technically.
 
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Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
According to Morozov's interview in Russia, Oda came to him during the Olympics in tears because his girlfriend had just informed him of her pregnancy. He didn't know how to break it to his mother who didn't even know of her.

I think it was very inconsiderate of the girl friend to inform about the pregnancy during the Olympics. She should have waited until the freeskate was over.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
And I think that's a problem that needs to be addressed as well. Errors that interrupt the flow are significant to casual viewers like me.
This arguement is usually aimed at Chan. He's always so fast at getting back up that the flow is usually not interrupted, just the jump itself. A fall in the step sequence of course has more impact, but it's duely deducted as in the TEB performance.

We are discussing whether the penalty for errors is appropriate or not under the current scoring system, yet your response is "It's duly deducted." It's like when debating the appropriateness of death penalty, one argues "He has received due punishment under the law." That's a funny logic, isn't it? We are debating the law (rules), not the judging.

The argument does not aim at Chan. It is Chan himself who made too many mistakes. Long before Chan there was another skater putting herself under the spotlight. It was Carolina Kostner. Of course, she has improved somewhat and not made too many glaring errors for a while, and therefore there has not been many complaints about her for a while. My point is: Chan is a great skater but the world does not rotate around him. Not everything is for Chan, against Chan, or about Chan in particular.

"A fall in the step sequence of course has more impact"--yet that is not reflected in the current scoring system. Take Chan's fall in his CiSt3 as an example: The mandatory deduction (-1) plus the negative GOE (-1.40) = -2.40. After taking the base value 3.30 into consideration, he still pocketed almost a whole point with that messy, interrupting mistake. He fell at 1:40 and came back at 1:44 and there was a passing moment at 1:51 his balance did not look secure to my untrained eye and I thought he was going to fall (of course he didn't). I would characterize it as messy and interrupting. There is not much of a risk falling on a footwork, is there?

I have a question: Why is "level" designed as such that a person can miss 4 seconds of skating and still receive the same level of difficulty?
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Specifically his 2007 Worlds LP performance of that program. For me, Lambiel deserved the highest PCS ever in a male CoP program there.

I actually kind of think he even deserved the Silver medal over Joubert (Takahashi clearly deserved Gold overall for me), despite the big jump mistakes in the SP. It was that superior of a performance and one of the most difficult ever technically.

I agree about the Poeta PCS thing; the 2007 Worlds version, in my mind, is one of the greatest performances in the history of CoP. The passion, the vigor, and the sheer artistic abandon Lambiel displayed was astounding to watch. Sublime choreography too. Plus, he also managed to land a good 3A and a 4T-2T-2T, which is just the cherry on top of the whole thing.

Not sure about the silver medal though....Lambiel deserves credit for ditching that weird yodelling SP in favour of Blood Diamond, but falling on the 3A and having only a 3T-2T combo is kind of embarrassing for a senior male skater of Lambiel's calibre. Joubert deserved the big lead from the SP.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
The argument does not aim at Chan. It is Chan himself who made too mistakes. Long before Chan there was another skater putting herself under the spotlight. It was Carolina Kostner. Of course, she has improved somewhat and not made too many glaring errors for a while, and therefore there has not been many complaints about her for a while. My point is: Chan is a great skater but the world does not rotate around him. Not everything is for Chan, against Chan, or about Chan in particular.

Ack, the 2008 Carolina Kostner fan war! Poor Caro really took a beating on these boards after 2008 Worlds, as did many people's faith in the holy tenets of CoP.

Interesting parallel you drew there, but I have to admit, it fits. The reaction after Chan's win at, say, Skate Canada last year really was rather reminiscent of Kostner's silver at Worlds in 2008. Similar fan outrage and similar debates about CoP. The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Lambiel's 3Axel in the LP was downgraded to a double, whereas with the current rules Lambiel would have received 6 points base value for the slight underrotation on that 3Axel (rather than 3.3 points). So he wins without the QR.
I specifically referred to the format, not the scoring, because the 2006 season was the last with a QR that counted toward the total score. Obviously old performances would have scored differently under current standards.

In 2007, Joubert's LP had no elements with a negative GOE. His BV wasn't very high - partly because of spin levels - but it wasn't embarrassingly low, and he won with a good skate, not a messy performance. As Evangeline noted, he skated a great SP, with a 4-3, high levels on spins and steps, and only a minor mistake, and he was totally selling it. Leaving aside Stephane's SP performance, Dai had no quad, a UR call, and lower spin levels than Joubert. I'd say that Brian deserved his lead, and certainly did enough to win: it was classic CoP, go with a layout you can skate well and get good GOEs.

I agree about the Poeta PCS thing; the 2007 Worlds version, in my mind, is one of the greatest performances in the history of CoP. The passion, the vigor, and the sheer artistic abandon Lambiel displayed was astounding to watch. Sublime choreography too. Plus, he also managed to land a good 3A and a 4T-2T-2T, which is just the cherry on top of the whole thing.

Not sure about the silver medal though....Lambiel deserves credit for ditching that weird yodelling SP in favour of Blood Diamond, but falling on the 3A and having only a 3T-2T combo is kind of embarrassing for a senior male skater of Lambiel's calibre. Joubert deserved the big lead from the SP.
That's why it's my PCS benchmark... I also liked the idea of Blood Diamond, and would have enjoyed seeing it performed at a higher standard.

I'll take Carolina over Patrick any day, but there are similarities in the way their skating and results are perceived. Would that Nichol gave Patrick interesting programs like she does for Caro.
 
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mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Back from Paris late last night.

Although Men's event was a disappointing affair after all, it was still absolute joy to watch figure skating live.

Nan Song was a hero of the event for me with a very committed performance with no obvious mistakes, and he saved my day. I saw him in Paris last year and his improvement since was astonishing. Jr World medallists of 2010 are all coming along nicely :)

Having said that, Patrick was still head and shoulders above the others in the competition in all departments. It was as if he had skated on different ice from the others. If Nan Song had won simply because he did not fall, I think it would have been scandalous and would have made me doubt what 'figure skating' would stand for.

The audience support for Oda was heart-warming. It made me well up.
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Patrick was still head and shoulders above the others in the competition in all departments. It was as if he had skated on different ice from the others. If Nan Song had won simply because he did not fall, I think it would have been scandalous and would have made me doubt what 'figure skating' would stand for.

I totally agree. Chan was the rightful winner in my mind.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
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Sep 14, 2008
Country
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In 2007, Joubert's LP had no elements with a negative GOE. His BV wasn't very high - partly because of spin levels - but it wasn't embarrassingly low, and he won with a good skate, not a messy performance. As Evangeline noted, he skated a great SP, with a 4-3, high levels on spins and steps, and only a minor mistake, and he was totally selling it. Leaving aside Stephane's SP performance, Dai had no quad, a UR call, and lower spin levels than Joubert. I'd say that Brian deserved his lead, and certainly did enough to win: it was classic CoP, go with a layout you can skate well and get good GOEs.

Joubert did deserve a solid lead after the SP (although the downgrade rules back then were too harsh, so I don't think they objectively should have been separated as much as they were) but honestly Takahashi's PCS alone in the LP deserved to more than cover the gap, IMO. Then we have to add in that Takahashi had more technical merit in his LP as well. It's a pretty clear case for me.

I agree about the Poeta PCS thing; the 2007 Worlds version, in my mind, is one of the greatest performances in the history of CoP. The passion, the vigor, and the sheer artistic abandon Lambiel displayed was astounding to watch. Sublime choreography too. Plus, he also managed to land a good 3A and a 4T-2T-2T, which is just the cherry on top of the whole thing.

Not sure about the silver medal though....Lambiel deserves credit for ditching that weird yodelling SP in favour of Blood Diamond, but falling on the 3A and having only a 3T-2T combo is kind of embarrassing for a senior male skater of Lambiel's calibre. Joubert deserved the big lead from the SP.

Yeah, Lambiel's jump content in the SP was quite poor. In terms of the spins, footwork, and program it was still superb, though, so that helps.

It's difficult to gauge between both programs because Lambiel's LP performance was tremendously masterful. I honestly think his PCS should have been 15 points higher than Joubert's LP performance...that's really huge. Lambiel's tech was better than Joubert's as well. Even though he had more mistakes, his jump layout was more difficult, the spins were infinitely better, and the footwork was better.

It really would suck for Joubert to place 1st in the SP and do relatively well in the LP and then be overtaken by someone who had such a flawed SP, but if I'm scoring the numbers accurately that's really how I probably would have had it in the end (it would definitely be close). Joubert gave a lackluster performance with a lackluster program, despite being clean, and Lambiel delivered one of the best performances ever.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
As for quads and footwork, AFAIK the first skater to have level 4 footwork and a 4-3 in the same program was Plushenko. The next one, I believe, was... Evan Lysacek. It's now easier to get level 4 on step sequences than it was in the past; if I'm not mistaken, there were level 4s given on the JGP, and Viktoria Helgesson got one at TEB this weekend, and she's not exactly renowned for her footwork, is she?

It is NOT easier to achieve Level 4 footwork now than it was in 2006 when Plushenko did it. In fact, it is much more difficult today to get Level 4 footwork than it was in 2006 when Plushenko did it. The requirements for Level 4 footwork and spins have become increasingly more difficult since CoP was introduced.
 

havefun

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Interestingly enough. You never hear anything but praise from Chans competitors about his skating. Now take Nan Song. Great jumps. Good edges. He watches Chan and sees that it is possible if he works hard on pcs's to improve his performance. New choreographer. Hard work. Now the landscape is changing.
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Off the top of my head, Lambiel's spins, Browning's performance, versatility, and comedic talents (but then Patrick hasn't had much time to build repertoire or artistry yet), Swayer's flexibility, Takahashi's soulfulness and flamboyance, various skaters' quads other than 4T, Beacom's creativity and plain craziness, etc.

:) Except for Takahashi, I think that is a cute answer cause I thought Buttercup meant contemporary skaters, otherwise Dick Button wins them all!
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
The solution is not to tweak the goe on a fall. The solution is to give zero to a fall but increase the base value for a successful attempt.

That won't work. The result will be rewarding the more technical skaters who are probably artistically blind. Skaters like Song will be winning a lot more times over Patrick Chan, and skaters like Takahashi and Kozuka will have no chance to win what so ever. Is that what you wanted? That'll truly be called "jumping competitions".

To be honest with you, I have no problem with Kevin winning more competitions if he can lands all those jumps cleanly. Those are hard elements. The truth is that he was no where near medal positions if he was unable to land those jumps cleanly.

That is supposed or intended to be because without those hard jumps, Kevin's programs had little to offer. Both Kevins. Especially Reynolds. I know you meant VDP. VDP was slow. I mean SLOW. He's amazing having been able to stay on the upper layer of the elite skaters for so long, but that was where he's supposed to be, not higher.

The pcs is almost fixed. What's the point to have 50% of your final score being predetermined anyway?

I'm interested in where you get this number and the idea?

One need to study closely on PCS scores before reach the conclusion about "fixed PCS". Where the number 50% came from? PCS is only 30%.

The thing is that with Chan's performance, unless it's flawless or nearly so in which case it is breath-takingly amazing, there is always an immediate and heated focus on the mistakes and no attention is paid to the rest of the program and the total performance. The impression is then formed that it is mistake-ridden and a mess, which is far from the truth. On re-viewing, it is often a relief to realize that it is not quite that bad, and then the appriciation can begin. His programs are so rich and full of beautiful moments and amazing manuevers that even with a few errors, there is still so much left to appreciate and enjoy. I guess the scoring reflects this fact too. He has so much that he can afford to lose some. When he is on, likely later in the season, then the marks go through the roof.

Which in turn proved that the judges did have valuable training and skillfully giving out the results in a few minutes. Chan's scores in relation to the rest of the field were largely justified under current system.


ETA:

There IS something wrong with a system where a skater falls multiple times in a FS and still gets SS and PE in the mid to upper 8s.

If the skater is all that skilled, one would think falls would be a rare thing instead of commonplace at every event.

Walking on both edges would guarantee not to fall. Is that called skilled? Chan was pushing the edge limits all the time. I'd say his falls were rare, very rare in fact, with the deep edges he's been exercising in his entire programs. Should we penalize the falls (I mean other than one point deduction from the fall) to reduce the boundary pushing on footworks? I don't think so.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I'm interested in where you get this number and the idea?

One need to study closely on PCS scores before reach the conclusion about "fixed PCS". Where the number 50% came from? PCS is only 30%.

I am pretty sure that PCSs are, by intention, 50% of the total, sometimes more or less depending on the skater and the performance.

In this contest (LP) it was

Chan : TES 72.30, PCS 85.14
Song: TES 79.93, PCS 67.64
Rippon: TES 70.04, PCS 74,80.

I think that the PCS multipliers for men and for women are designed to keep this 50-50 ratio as close as possible.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I am pretty sure that PCSs are, by intention, 50% of the total, sometimes more or less depending on the skater and the performance.

In this contest (LP) it was

Chan : TES 72.30, PCS 85.14
Song: TES 79.93, PCS 67.64
Rippon: TES 70.04, PCS 74,80.

I think that the PCS multipliers for men and for women are designed to keep this 50-50 ratio as close as possible.

:eek:: Ooops! Thanks! Mathman! Go to sit in the corner and timeout myself, then go to study more about PCS.:p
 
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