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Thread: Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST

  1. #166
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    But then the weight for high risk elements overwhelms everything else. It also doesn't mean that messy skates are less rewarded. In fact, a massive error that isn't a fall would still score huge points than a clean attempt on an easier element. Additionally, that argues that falling on a harder element means the same as falling on an easy one. And finally, if you can do the high risk elements, the rest of your skating can be terrible and you'd still be a medal contender (see Kevin van der Perren. Now imagine him winning more competitions).

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    But then the weight for high risk elements overwhelms everything else. It also doesn't mean that messy skates are less rewarded. In fact, a massive error that isn't a fall would still score huge points than a clean attempt on an easier element. Additionally, that argues that falling on a harder element means the same as falling on an easy one. And finally, if you can do the high risk elements, the rest of your skating can be terrible and you'd still be a medal contender (see Kevin van der Perren. Now imagine him winning more competitions).
    To be honest with you, I have no problem with Kevin winning more competitions if he can lands all those jumps cleanly. Those are hard elements. The truth is that he was no where near medal positions if he was unable to land those jumps cleanly. He has to land clean jumps to compensate the deficiency in other aspects of his skating in order to medal. On the other hand, Chan can continue cruising to victory by falling, falling and falling. As Mathman pointed out, there is no risk invovled if he keeps falling but still wins anyway. That means the system is not designed correctly. It has not penalized sufficiently those severely messy programs including multiple falls.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    In fact, a massive error that isn't a fall would still score huge points than a clean attempt on an easier element.
    And I think that's a problem that needs to be addressed as well. Errors that interrupt the flow are significant to casual viewers like me.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    The solution is not to tweak the goe on a fall. The solution is to give zero to a fall but increase the base value for a successful attempt. This is investment 101, high risk and high return. The current penalty on a failed element and base value for high risk elements are both insufficient. That's exactly why the scores for a lots of extremely messy performances are very stupid. D/R got their sb for their disastrous lp because of this stupid system. I have no problem with skaters who try hard elements successfully to get rewarded very generously. But if they fail, the penalty also has to be dramatic.
    It may be your idea of justice but it won't fly. All the quads attempts will disappear, even from the likes of Joubert, who has regularly taken out quads deemed unnecessary depending on other skater's results.

    Why do you single out Chan when others have been more calculated about their quad risks, even doing them consistently with expectation of falling? Mathman's assertion of no risk for quad attempts refers to Takahashi's strategy. Chan always commits himself to his program plans regardless of others' performances. One win with falls at an early season event is sufficient reason to overhaul a system so successful at its objective?

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Mathman, you're right about Takahashi's score for his NHK's 4F. He does a 3Lz+2T so can he do a 3Lz in place of the 4F?
    Alas, no, he can't. Zayak's got him. If you don't have a quad and you do a triple-triple, you are out of options for the eighth pass no matter how much you wiggle.

    Edited to add: Wait I can make a poem out of that.

    If you don't have a quad
    And you do a triple-triple,
    Then you're fresh out of options
    No matter how you wiggle.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-20-2011 at 10:05 PM.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    And I think that's a problem that needs to be addressed as well. Errors that interrupt the flow are significant to casual viewers like me.
    This arguement is usually aimed at Chan. He's always so fast at getting back up that the flow is usually not interrupted, just the jump itself. A fall in the step sequence of course has more impact, but it's duely deducted as in the TEB performance. There was a big arguement about his Japan Open win which I did not wade in, seeing it was a pre season cheesefest. But I did notice and time his falls at less than a second each, without taking out his choreography besides the missed jump. Takahashi, OTOH, had a fall and stroked for almost 10 seconds before resuming his program. That was a real interruption of program flow nobody complained about.

    I find some skaters are quick at getting up from expected falls but are dazed by unexpected ones and miss much of the program right after. I have seen high level skaters like Kim and Oda do that but never Chan. Not all falls interrupt the program to the same degree.

  7. #172
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    Skateflower, you do realize that taking away the elements Chan fell on (scoring them 0), he'd still win TEB, right? And Skate Canada?

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    It may be your idea of justice but it won't fly. All the quads attempts will disappear, even from the likes of Joubert, who has regularly taken out quads deemed unnecessary depending on other skater's results.

    ?
    You're absolutely wrong. They increased the base value of quads has resulted in a dramatic increase of quad attempts. If they increase the value of quad even more but give zero credit for a fall on the jump, that will sure make skaters take notice. Some 2nd tier skaters will no doubt continue to try quads to dethrone top tier skaters.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Skateflower, you do realize that taking away the elements Chan fell on (scoring them 0), he'd still win TEB, right? And Skate Canada?
    I have no idea how his final score would be. It's not about Chan. It's about the system. Chan is just a prime example of how badly designed this system is. They also need to reduce the weightings of pcs. The pcs is almost fixed. What's the point to have 50% of your final score being predetermined anyway?

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Skateflower, you do realize that taking away the elements Chan fell on (scoring them 0), he'd still win TEB, right? And Skate Canada?
    I think what he/she wants is whenever Chan fell, all his PCS points should be stripped of, and until then, he/she would not be happy.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    I have no idea how his final score would be. It's not about Chan. It's about the system. Chan is just a prime example of how badly designed this system is. They also need to reduce the weightings of pcs. The pcs is almost fixed. What's the point to have 50% of your final score being predetermined anyway?
    Dude, you called it Chanflation. Are you seriously trying to say it's not about Chan?

  12. #177
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    There IS something wrong with a system where a skater falls multiple times in a FS and still gets SS and PE in the mid to upper 8s.

    If the skater is all that skilled, one would think falls would be a rare thing instead of commonplace at every event.

  13. #178
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    (Y)ou do realize that taking away the elements Chan fell on (scoring them 0), he'd still win TEB, right? And Skate Canada?
    Of course he would.

    That just feeds the fire for those who think either (a) the CoP is screwy or (b) Chan is overscored.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-20-2011 at 10:33 PM.

  14. #179
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    Fwiw, Mathman, I think I agree with both at this point.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    I have no idea how his final score would be. It's not about Chan. It's about the system. Chan is just a prime example of how badly designed this system is. They also need to reduce the weightings of pcs. The pcs is almost fixed. What's the point to have 50% of your final score being predetermined anyway?
    Instead of complaining about Chan's high PCS and reducing PCS weight, skaters just need to up their skating skills and other PC abilities, just like they are training quads to catch up in TES. After all, they are paticipating in skating competitions.

    ISU already raised quad values when Chan was a prime non-quader, eliminated a step sequence from the SP, and rendered the second step sequence in the LP the same level for everyone when it was his specialty. This season they further reduced the GOE values for the non-leveled step sequence. You want to continue changing the system radically as further measures against this one skater despite the total failure to stop him from winning? As I always say, go ahead. Chan wouldn't be the one to pay the price.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 11-20-2011 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Typos

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