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Thread: Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST

  1. #181
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    The point is not to stop Patrick from winning. The point is to come up with a scoring system that is more in tune with our intuition about what constitutes a good skating performance.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The point is not to stop Patrick from winning. The point is to come up with a scoring system that is more in tune with our intuition about what constitutes a good skating performance.
    Which, admittedly, is quite difficult.

  3. #183
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    It's not just this one skater. I have some (not all) sympathies with PoodlePal (maybe in part because I'm a "poodle pal" too!). I'm wondering if the additive nature of COP is to blame. As long as the score rewards "more," skaters will add all they can, even to the point of "more" than they can handle. Hence the falls.

    Anyway, chuckm, Chan's last season was brilliant. He doesn't necessarily fall in every event and he was sick this weekend. Let's see how he does later in the season. To me this isn't mainly (or at least not just) a Chan thing but an overly-tricky program/system thing.

    And I'm not denying that beautiful programs have come out of COP. Jeremy's and Daisuke's programs alone this season are proof of that. Choreographers ETA: and skaters! can be geniuses. But you have to wade through a lot of dullness and mistakes to get to those beauties.
    Last edited by Spun Silver; 11-20-2011 at 11:03 PM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    It's not just this one skater. I have some (not all) sympathies with PoodlePal (maybe in part because I'm a "poodle pal" too!). I'm wondering if the additive nature of COP is to blame. As long as the score rewards "more," skaters will add all they can, even to the point of "more" than they can handle. Hence the falls.

    And I'm not denying that beautiful programs have come out of COP. Jeremy's and Daisuke's programs alone this season are proof of that. Choreographers can be geniuses. But you have to wade through a lot of dullness and mistakes to get to those beauties.
    You see, I actually think more beautiful programs have come out of COP. Restrictions force creativity.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 11-20-2011 at 11:15 PM.

  5. #185
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    ITA with that. I've posted quotes by Stravinsky here to that effect. I remember reading about conversations between Balanchine and Stravinsky, when they were collaborating on a new ballet, where B. would say, "Give me about 2 minutes," and S. would say, "Do you want 2 mins. 10 seconds or 1 min. 59 seconds?" (This is a very rough account. Actually it may have been related to a ballet for baby elephants!)

    That's the perplexing thing about COP. It has a lot to brag about as well as a lot of neuralgic issues.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    And I'm not denying that beautiful programs have come out of COP. Jeremy's and Daisuke's programs alone this season are proof of that. Choreographers can be geniuses. But you have to wade through a lot of dullness and mistakes to get to those beauties.
    6.0 produced mostly dull programs too but it's the beautiful ones we remember. With CoP, it's more challenging to have both beauty and athletism.

    Isn't it clear that the best programs are performed by the high PCS skaters? To think someone wants to punish or discourage them by reducing the weight of PCS! The zeal to stop Chan from winning sometimes can be blinding.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The point is not to stop Patrick from winning. The point is to come up with a scoring system that is more in tune with our intuition about what constitutes a good skating performance.
    More quads, less footwork? "Cause that is what recent changes are about.

    Now the point I was addressing was the proposal to reduce PCS's weight in scoring the performance, while voiding all fallen jumps with zero points. What kind of intuitively recognized good perfromances will that produce?
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 11-20-2011 at 11:11 PM.

  8. #188
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    Just watched Chan. Thinking about the other men. Dai Abbott etc. It looks like everyone is designing programs including Chan to push the envelope technically and pcs wise. This has to be good for the sport right? Playing it safe as a male skater doesn't seem to be a winning strategy anymore. Apart from the jumps some of the moves, edges and performing are awesome.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by havefun View Post
    Just watched Chan. Thinking about the other men. Dai Abbott etc. It looks like everyone is designing programs including Chan to push the envelope technically and pcs wise. This has to be good for the sport right? Playing it safe as a male skater doesn't seem to be a winning strategy anymore. Apart from the jumps some of the moves, edges and performing are awesome.
    Exactly.

    Before Chan, it was either quads or footwork. He raised the bar for the sport and showed the possibilities.

    Just wait for the new wave of youngsters coming up, including those from the unexpected nation of China.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post

    Before Chan, it was either quads or footwork.
    I'm sure skaters like Stephane Lambiel and pre-knee injury Daisuke Takahashi, both of whom had quads and excellent footwork, would beg to differ.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodhiyel View Post
    As to Chan, I notice that he did a 3A in the SP, but not in the FS, whereas Song, who also executed a 4T and a 4T+3T, was brave enough to include a 3A in his FS. A male champion should be brave enough not to have to choose between attempting quad jumping and attempting the triple axel. He should be brave enough to try both in the same free programme.
    What made you think that Patrick wasn't brave enough to try 3A and quad in the same free program?! Patrick planned two quads, one in combo, and one 3A in his LP. He actually went as planned. Notice the open leg in the air when he did that first 2A? That was supposed to be 3A. But something went wrong in the air. He wasn't able to finish 3 turns. So he openned his leg and only did a 2A. Are falls the only measure to show skaters bravery?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I went and rewatched it. For me, it's off from the get go. Watch his opening move. It's a simple, elegant maneuver that signifies his intention: calm speed, controlled passion. At the Japan Open and SC, it's startlingly fast and surprisingly expressive. At TEB, it's less so (full disclosure: I have HD video of the JO and SC performances, but not of the TEB). But the double axel was wonky, of course and the fall during the footwork devastating. At that point, he fell behind the music and struggled to catch up. The death drop spin, so wonderful when timed with the flourish and generally so huge, was less so here. Now, I will say I understated his fight. Landing the triple loop, with that brief entry, was impressive (the loop is his second weakest jump, after the triple axel). He clearly put all of himself into those quads. It's not the worst he's ever skated, but it felt like it.

    I agree with you: this program is a masterpiece. I truly believe that when skated clean, I will consider it one of the all time great programs (according to me).

    SF, I want him to be bored with "Take Five," actually. I want him to stop keeping programs (and I want him to explore other choreographers, but whatever).
    I partially agree with you. You know what? It was off from the get go at SC too since I also have used JO's standard to measure both his performances at SC and TEB. His JO performance was artistically the best of all three times he's done so far. At there, his openning moves made me a fan of this program in first a few seconds. It was pretty magical. I agree he looked tired at TEB in both his SP and LP. He didn't have his ustual energy and attack as he had in SC. However, this weakened Patrick was still pretty powerful. I bet if Abbott or Kozuka has had this level of energy in his programs, it'd be viewed as great. But not in Patrick's because people were used to see Patrick had more attacks and powers. This time he was certainly lack of it. But he did fight very hard for it to the end. Each time he made mistake, he quickly recovered and put the mistake behind and focused on the next movement and element. Yes, I've noticed he fell behind of the music on death drop. But he gradually caught up. Apart from a few unfortunate jumps and an ugly fall from footworks, he's maintained the artistic level in general. In another word, he did not lose much PCS, though he did lose some. I have no problem on the PCS he's got.

    If he skated this program clean, I, too, will consider it one of the all time great programs. I will cherrish this program like I've been cherrishing Alexei Yagudin's many programs.

    And I, too, hope that he could have dumped "Take Five" which I've never liked much. I wouldn't mind him keeping Aranjuez. But generally, I don't like skaters keeping their programs.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-21-2011 at 01:17 AM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I'm sure skaters like Stephane Lambiel and pre-knee injury Daisuke Takahashi, both of whom had quads and excellent footwork, would beg to differ.
    Then there would not have been the Olympic controversy. And some Worlds controveries. They had not been able to do both well in the same program. It wasn't necessary then. Some one, like Joubert, would win with quads and some, like Buttle, would win with skating. Takahashi won without a quad.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Then there would not have been the Olympic controversy. And some Worlds controveries. They had not been able to do both well in the same program. It wasn't necessary then. Some one, like Joubert, would win with quads and some, like Buttle, would win with skating. Takahashi won without a quad.
    That's because both Lambiel and Takahashi were injured/recovering from severe injuries by the time the Vancouver Olympics rolled around. They had been able to do both quads and footwork well in the same program in the past--e.g. 2006 Worlds for Lambiel, 2008 4CC for Takahashi, 2007 Worlds LP for both--though I recall Takahashi's quad in his LP in Tokyo was not quite so perfect, but it was landed and given full credit with only a little negative GOE.

    As for Worlds and controversies, well, like Chan at TEB this weekend, Lambiel and Takahashi had their bad days, and for them, it so happened to have occurred at a World championships (2007 Worlds SP, 2008 Worlds as a whole for both of them, I guess).

    But no offence, saying Chan is the first to combine the ability to do quads and quality footwork is tantamount to re-writing skating history.

  14. #194
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    I just went to watch Lambiel's Championship winning LPs. He really was an all round skater. Exquisite spins, beautiful footwork and jumps including quads. He is forever one of my all time favorites, jumps or no jumps. However, the step sequences were not quite the same standard as today, shorter and simpler. The jump entries were typical too, with cross cuts to build up speed and long glides into the jumps. Mind you, his cross cuts and gliding are a beautiful sight to see. But technically, his programs were quite a bit less demanding than a winning program of today.

    I am sure if he were 20 today, he would be one of the very top all round skaters with the highest levels of footwork, transitions and jumps. But it was a little less demanding then. He won with flawed performances too.

    Whatever the timing of physical conditions of any skater, Chan's 2011 Worlds win was historical and convincing, with little comprise in any aspect of the highest level of skating. The impact on the standard of skating was immediate, building up even before Worlds. This is not rewriting history.

  15. #195
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    Different rules/requirements at the time, different step sequences. But the quality is still evident even today. Lambiel's Poeta step sequence, in my mind, is one of the most memorable step sequences ever. Takahashi's step sequence in in his Phantom sent the audience in near-complete hysterics when he finished--I watched it live on TV in 2007 and I still remember how it sent chills up my spine.

    Also, I never said the impact of Chan's 2011 Worlds win was re-writing history. He skated magnificently and deserved the world title by a country mile; I'm sure it pushed many skaters to up their level of skating. My original objection was to your statement "Before Chan, it was either quads or footwork," which, as I pointed out, was inaccurate given what Lambiel and Takahashi had accomplished long before Chan added the quad to his repertoire of elements.

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