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Thread: Free Dance, Sat. 11/19 at 2:30 pm EST

  1. #91
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    But that was not reflective of what hapened at the Olympics. The fives came from the email- not what was done in the SP.
    *shrugs* if he doesn't have transitions worthy of higher, he doesn't have transitions worthy of higher... whether or not an email happened is moot


    or some such theory. Isn't that how the whole pairs scandal was justified by the side that originally won out? B/S were superior anyway, so what difference did a little politiking and money exchange really make?

  2. #92
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    1. I have to admit, Buttercup, while I understand you wanting to balance the scales in terms politicking accusations and I know you've had some frustrations with the direction dance is headed, I'd argue that what Anissina does is exactly what you've opposed on the boards previously. I've always felt bad for Massimo Scali for how his comments were first mistranslated and then futher decontextualized.

    2. Here's the thing, though - I am a fan of Domnina/Shabalin. Not the Domnina/Shabalin that won bronze at the Olympics, or gold in LA. This Domnina/Shabalin. Hell, I'm a fan of Bobrova/Soloviev too. But to clarify one thing: Delobel/Schoenfelder used a scarf/belt in a lift during their Worlds OD in 2008 - so the exemption had a precedent. As awful as that dance was, I think Linichuk knew what she was doing. She had to do something (A) different enough such that there wouldn't be any reasonable standard of comparison and (b) distract attention away from his injuries. That dance accomplished that perfectly.

    3. It was always going to be difficult for the Shibs and W/P to defend their positions. W/P got 5th by 0.09 points. Shibs got 3rd by 0.25 points. Those narrow margins mean that a different panel (and if we're honest, we'll point out the panel at Worlds would've favoured the Americans over the Russians/French) could have reversed those results. But I think wally has it right - three groups of two battling with each other for the top six, with a couple outside teams honing in on the bottom third.

  3. #93
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    However, in the folk OD of the 2007/2008 season, props and hats were explicitly permitted in the rules. That has never been true at any other part of a competition. Several teams tried them. D&W had a hat and a yellow handkerchief at SA, V&M had a scarf at the summer monitoring session, B&A had a hat. However, if you dropped the prop, there was a penalty, and there was no positive scoring for a really good prop. Most teams quit using them before Worlds. DelSchoes kept their ribbons.

    B&A with a hat, swapping it back and forth (it got more action at SA than at CoC, but SA is not on youtube.)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyJm_KHFQjQ

    D&W ditched the hat and handkerchief after SA. SA 2007 is on IN still, which is why it is not on youtube.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-22-2011 at 10:44 PM.

  4. #94
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. I have to admit, Buttercup, while I understand you wanting to balance the scales in terms politicking accusations and I know you've had some frustrations with the direction dance is headed, I'd argue that what Anissina does is exactly what you've opposed on the boards previously. I've always felt bad for Massimo Scali for how his comments were first mistranslated and then futher decontextualized.
    I just find Anissina kind of meaningless in the scheme of things; a great skater in the past, a worthy champion, but she has no real role in skating today. Why shouldn't she say whatever she wants? And she was not talking about conspiracies and such, just about what the scoring system is rewarding. I see it sort of like Elvis Stojko's comments over the years. Or Olivier Schoenfelder talking about how good the Canton teams are (which I believe he has), or the Janet Lynn piece currently being discussed in The Edge. They're done skating, let them speak their mind. Now if it were someone actively involved in skating, such a judge or an official... well, that would deserve condemnation.

    So in my mind, I'm very consistent. YMMV.

    As awful as that dance was, I think Linichuk knew what she was doing. She had to do something (A) different enough such that there wouldn't be any reasonable standard of comparison and (b) distract attention away from his injuries. That dance accomplished that perfectly.
    Now that is an interesting point. Could it have been accomplished with a less controversial dance, or was that also calculated? Did Linichuk underestimate how badly it would be received in some contexts?

    To add to Doris's list of 2008 props, P/B used a fan for the OD and their costumes as props in the FD, but not for lifts.

    I promised that I would not discuss the Inman mail, but I would just like to point out that AFAIK Plushenko's comments were reported as such only in one place (Absolute Skating) and came from a press event for an ice show. What exactly was said and the context has never been clarified. I know some people have suggested that he was referring to transitions into the harder jumps, and I think that's a fair point to make, that you can do more transitions if you're only doing triples. Unless Titanilla Bőd explains what exactly was said, I'm not sure it'll ever be clear that Plushenko really meant what Inman suggested he meant.

    And neither of them should have dragged Joubert into it, but Joubert did himself in at Vancouver, so it doesn't matter anymore.

  5. #95
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    It will just always be true that Inman said judge Plushenko on his statement and not what is done on the ice in Vancouver.

  6. #96
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It is also true that Plushenko did not do very many transitions to speak of in Vancouver; that was on the ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup
    Quote Originally Posted by Imaginary Pogue
    As awful as that dance was, I think Linichuk knew what she was doing. She had to do something (A) different enough such that there wouldn't be any reasonable standard of comparison and (b) distract attention away from his injuries. That dance accomplished that perfectly.
    Now that is an interesting point. Could it have been accomplished with a less controversial dance, or was that also calculated? Did Linichuk underestimate how badly it would be received in some contexts?
    I have wondered why Linichuk went on with it, and thought perhaps she is one of those who feels any press coverage is a good thing? I think IP is right that the choreographic structure both of Aborigines & Veronique was so that you wouldn't notice that Max's knees prevented a good leg line from happening, and limited the variety of what skills they could do.

    Innovation has generally played well in ice dance. And better there should be something to talk about other than Maxim's physical difficulties. I think that is what she thought.

    But I think she underestimated how fast news travels these days, even about fan stuff in figure skating.

    If she had unveiled Aborigines in Vancouver, rather than at Russian Nationals and Euros, the whirlwind would have happened after the medal (whatever color) was safely awarded to DomShabs. And then it would have not been news after a week. Even if she skipped Euros, there would have been less international attention to Aborigines. Linichuk has lived for years in the US, and the Astin rink has several Canadians on staff, for that matter. It's difficult for me to believe she didn't know what would happen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IceWorks_Skating_Complex

    IceWorks is one of the only public rinks in the United States or Canada that has a professional coaching staff. Jim Watson, former Philadelphia Flyer, leads the hockey staff along with the rink's General Manager Stephane Charbonneau. Uschi Keszler, coach of Olympic skater Elvis Stojko, leads a Figure Skating staff of 18 full-time coaches. Public skating is also offered for people of all ages.
    Why didn't she toddle into Uschi Keszler's office and ask, "how do you think these costumes and this dance will play in Vancouver?" Or ask Tanith Belbin?

    By Euros, it was really too late to change the dance, beyond removing the section of music that was written by the British composer and replace it with other similar noises, clicks and hums.

    I think she thought to play the outrage that she had to know was coming, but I think she underestimated the size& timing of the response, perhaps due to not gauging correctly the interconnectedness of the world.

    I wonder whether Linichuk thought that what was said and done and broadcast in Russia, stayed in Russia, safely hidden behind the complexities of the Cyrillic alphabet and the Russian language? However, between Google translate, babelfish, and rutube (not to mention Russian posters on youtube) the rest of the world catches up very quickly these days. I think she did not expect that one of the people avidly watching Russian nationals on streaming video was an Australian ice dance judge, who forwarded a link to several friends in Australia, saying something like, "Get a load of this piece of dreck," and that one of those had close connections with aboriginal Australian people.

    This was less surprising if you were part of the ice dance on line community, since if you paid attention to lower ranked teams, you knew that Gregory & Merriman of Australia had presented an Aboriginal People OD in the 2007/2008 season, and there was a fluff piece of how they worked with local groups over the course of a year to make sure that what they were doing was both authentic, and that the drawings on their costumes were approved.

    Consquently, in skating fan circles, there was already a hue and cry almost immediately after Russian Nationals, so that the press was alerted by Euros.

    I think she expected no one would hear about the program till Euros, and that there would not be anything very organized internationally by the time of Olympics.

    Instead, the aboriginal people were upset and wrote to the Australiam newspaper (not to mention that they were fans of Gregory & Merriman, since they had worked with them, and felt DomShabs were stealing G&M's stuff. Perhaps, they did not think that the huge difference in skill between DomShabs and G&M justified borrowing of material.)

    It's a world that is getting ever smaller.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-23-2011 at 06:20 AM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I just find Anissina kind of meaningless in the scheme of things; a great skater in the past, a worthy champion, but she has no real role in skating today. Why shouldn't she say whatever she wants? And she was not talking about conspiracies and such, just about what the scoring system is rewarding. I see it sort of like Elvis Stojko's comments over the years. Or Olivier Schoenfelder talking about how good the Canton teams are (which I believe he has), or the Janet Lynn piece currently being discussed in The Edge. They're done skating, let them speak their mind. Now if it were someone actively involved in skating, such a judge or an official... well, that would deserve condemnation.

    So in my mind, I'm very consistent. YMMV.
    Of course, anyone should say what he/she wants. I'd argue, however, that since you've been bugged by anonymous message board posters about assuming all European countries are alike, presumably the same annoyance should be directed at a skater (who, it must be said, has been to both Canada and the United States) for grouping them together and transforming what they do on the ice into an perjorative statement.

    Now that is an interesting point. Could it have been accomplished with a less controversial dance, or was that also calculated? Did Linichuk underestimate how badly it would be received in some contexts?
    Truthfully, I think she underestimated. Ignoring the simple fact that blackface (aka, how they debuted at Euros) has a VERY bad conotation in Canada and the USA - perhaps not understanding just how poorly the Aboriginals of Australia live (compared to Canada and the USA, there is a lower standard of living and higher discrimination), perhaps just not caring (any publicity = good publicity), perhaps not understanding COP (it's not like she gave anyone else she had in her stable good programs either).

    The Inman email is fascinating, because I think both conditions are true.

    a) The judges responded to the email by marking Plushenko down on transitions
    b) Plushenko himself said (assumed to have said) that he had no transitions anyway, and you can't really argue he deserved higher. The higher transition scores were clearly reputation bonus points, which you get when you're a co-favourite/dominant skater, etc. Heck, in Torino, Plushenko had the HIGHEST transition scores, which were clearly bogus (higher than Matt Savoie? Shawn Sawyer?) but it didn't alter the outcome one jot anyway.

    Didn't realize about the prop thing in the OD. My bad, but I'd argue that it set the precedent anyway.

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