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Thread: Ladies LP, 11/19/11

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I like Czisny's new jump layout. Assuming the third element is supposed to be 2A+3T, this gives her a solid six triple layout that is within her reach.
    Based off of what evidence are you assuming that Alissa's 2A/2T is actually supposed to be a 2A/3T? I suspect that Alissa would have difficulty getting any combination with a backend 3T ratified. She hasn't had any success with the 3Lz/3T that she planned this season.

    I think a 3T/2t or a 3T+2A SEQ would be more realistic than a 2A/3T, thus allowing her to have a planned 6-triple layout.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by havefun View Post
    Actually it is quite meaningless that a 14 year old wins over ladies. Has been done before. Jury is out until post puberty. Just an FYI. It is quite well known in skating circles that these young Russian girls have some funky eating habits going on. Without getting into details...it ain't pretty...it can be quite a shock to a childs self esteem, when puberty sets in and their bodies are unable to perform the "tricks" of pre puberty.
    Complete garbage - and for your information, apparently Elizaveta comes from a family of very small people. There probably isn't a great deal of growing left to do. Hence, I think highly likely that she will fully retain her jumping ability.

    Sour grapes
    Last edited by Mao88; 11-19-2011 at 09:40 PM.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Slutskaya crushed Mao at Cup of China with something like 20 points and Liza won both of her GPs so at this point she's better than Mao. We'll see how she will do in GPF. Has Czisny qualified too?
    disagree, That GP was just before Olympic Season and it was hard for Mao to beat other top senior skaters.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Would you replace the 14-year old with a 12-year old? How about a 10-year old?
    I don't know. Sonia Henie competed in her first Olympics at age ten, finishing last. If you want to keep ten year olds out I think you could have some kind of skating standard, rather than an age standard, to weed them out.

    The question of ten-year-olds, however, is moot. A precocious ten-year-old would not be competitive as a senior competitor.

    But some skaters, like gymnasts, hit their peak at fourteen or fifteen. It seems strange to have a "World Championship" whose winner says, "Yay, I'm the best in the world (except of course for those two youngsters who can mop up the ice with me -- thank goodness they're not here!)"

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Actually, Mao did not win both of her GP events as a junior. Liza just did.

    Also, Mao had won everything the previous season as a junior, but Liza lost twice to Adelina.
    But Mao won the Grand Prix final at age 15, beating Slutskaya, didn't she? That was a bad omen for Irina, who had been undefeated for over a year prior to that, going into the Olympics.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Based off of what evidence are you assuming that Alissa's 2A/2T is actually supposed to be a 2A/3T? I suspect that Alissa would have difficulty getting any combination with a backend 3T ratified. She hasn't had any success with the 3Lz/3T that she planned this season.

    I think a 3T/2t or a 3T+2A SEQ would be more realistic than a 2A/3T, thus allowing her to have a planned 6-triple layout.
    I think Alissa's coaches were pushing the whole "up the ante" thing this year. There was a lot of talk about all the triple-triples Alissa was supposedly working on. And to her credit, Alissa gave it the old college try. Her double Axel is usually a pretty good jump for her, so maybe a 2A+3T could be on the table as something to run up the flag pole.

    I agree with the 3T+2T as a combination that would give her a satisfactory base value total and be within her compass. I wouldn't be surprised to see that at U.S. Nationals.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't know. Sonia Henie competed in her first Olympics at age ten, finishing last. If you want to keep ten year olds out I think you could have some kind of skating standard, rather than an age standard, to weed them out.

    The question of ten-year-olds, however, is moot. A precocious ten-year-old would not be competitive as a senior competitor.

    But some skaters, like gymnasts, hit their peak at fourteen or fifteen. It seems strange to have a "World Championship" whose winner says, "Yay, I'm the best in the world (except of course for those two youngsters who can mop up the ice with me -- thank goodness they're not here!)"
    Whereas I'd rather the age standard. Frankly, a child is a child and should be treated as such.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    But Mao won the Grand Prix final at age 15, beating Slutskaya, didn't she? That was a bad omen for Irina, who had been undefeated for over a year prior to that, going into the Olympics.
    Mao did, though it should be noted that the Grand Prix Final was in Japan that year, which didn't hurt.

    If Liza wins the GPF, that would exceed what Mao or Yu-Na did in their first seasons on the senior GP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think Alissa's coaches were pushing the whole "up the ante" thing this year. There was a lot of talk about all the triple-triples Alissa was supposedly working on. And to her credit, Alissa gave it the old college try. Her double Axel is usually a pretty good jump for her, so maybe a 2A+3T could be on the table as something to run up the flag pole.
    I thought it was Alissa herself who talked up the 3Lz/3T and the 3S (in order to reach 7 triples). Lots of talk, but no 3/3 was ratified, no triple salchow ever materialized.

    I really doubt that she can get a 2A/3T ratified. It's not like she gets great height on her triples when she's attempting them solo or as the frontend of a combination, hence why Alissa quite frequently gets dinged for URs/DGs. I don't see how she could get sufficient height to rotate a 3T when it's the backend of a 2A or 3Lz or any combination.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    What isn't fair? Every skater has been 14 at some point. And there are many who were actually better technically after puberty, including Arakawa, Kim, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Harding, etc. Caro and Alyssa didn't lose because Liza is 78 lbs, they lost because each needed one more triple to catch her.
    I don't think i have to say anything else if you read what eyria said.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    If Adelina's mother had known that Adelina would take up figure skating, perhaps she would have used forceps to bring her into the world a couple of days earlier...

    So silly...

    Is it wrong to think Mao had a higher lever of competition than Liza does today. I think of the depth of skaters Mao went up against being a step above although I do like Alissa and Carolina much better than say a Irina.
    Last edited by lavender; 11-19-2011 at 06:25 PM.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    So silly...

    Is it wrong to think Mao had a higher lever of competition than Liza does today. I think of the depth of skaters Mao went up against being a step above although I do like Alissa and Carolina much better than say a Irina.
    Mao and Yuna also went against a tougher Carolina at that.

    Here was Carolina's layout at the 2007-2008 GPF (she was third)

    3F-3T
    3Z-2L
    1F
    3Lo
    CCoSp3
    2A-3T
    3S
    FSSp4
    CoSp3
    SiSt3
    SqSq4
    CSSp2
    2A

  12. #177
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    I have cheered for older skaters and I will cheer for the young ones too. It's about the prowess of the athlete, not age. Excellence and winnings should be celebrated at the time of achievement, not discounted or postponed for a probable future success. Different athletes peak at different ages. Eligibility to compete should be decided by level of skills, besides by gender and discipline, not age, or height, or race, nationality, etc.

    It's not a fair competition if a strong competitor is kept out because of age. As for the protection of young skaters, they are going to train and compete with the most difficult moves they can do anyways even if they are made to stay out of the Senior level. All available knowledge and technology should be applied to the training to minimize any adverse effect and risk, for all ages with particular attention to the young ones. Health protection is not accomplished by prohibiting competitions.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I have cheered for older skaters and I will cheer for the young ones too. It's about the prowess of the athlete, not age. Excellence and winnings should be celebrated at the time of achievement, not discounted or postponed for a probable future success. Different athletes peak at different ages. Eligibility to compete should be decided by level of skills, besides by gender and discipline, not age, or height, or race, nationality, etc.

    It's not a fair competition if a strong competitor is kept out because of age. As for the protection of young skaters, they are going to train and compete with the most difficult moves they can do anyways even if they are made to stay out of the Senior level. All available knowledge and technology should be applied to the training to minimize any adverse effect and risk, for all ages with particular attention to the young ones. Health protection is not accomplished by prohibiting competitions.
    Nicely said. And I feel like the older skaters offer advantages that the younger skaters don't and vice versa. If you look at someone like Michelle Kwan, she managed to be younger AND older skaters. And she also got beaten by both younger and older skaters too.

    As I've said in several posts, Liza is blowing the competition away with her jumps. No doubt about that. I do think her jump technique is sound and will stick. But being a Mishin skater, she does not have the non-jump elements quite yet. That I think is a reflection of age too. When you're younger you tend to focus more on jumps and less on the whole package (though she's getting there!)

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by havefun View Post
    2 wins in the GP when I was a kid of 14 before puberty. That makes you a well trained monkey.
    It is hardly the only sport that girls at 14 compete, gymnastics and rythmics also. Why are junior championships held then? Cause they do jump more or less one triple after the other also there, doing the full GP and world juniors. I dont understand your thinking, if all it is are children that as you believe are just well trained monkeys then ISU should have said, stay at your rinks and start competing when you stop growing up at 18-19, otherwise they need to start from somewhere. Since rules allow her to compete stop moaning, we all know she is 14 but not all 14 can win.

    Did people bother that Mirai went to Olympics at 16? Cause she had not grown yet either.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-19-2011 at 07:24 PM. Reason: remove quotation of a moderated post

  15. #180
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    Sixteen is very different from fourteen. During those years a skaters body can completely change over one season. Mirai was also never hailed as the next big thing.
    Last edited by havefun; 11-19-2011 at 07:02 PM.

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