Ladies LP, 11/19/11 | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Ladies LP, 11/19/11

ILoveFigures

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 3, 2011
OC .... Followed up by Baiul - rehab for alcoholism when reality kicked in. Lipinski.....hip replacement, never to be able to skate again as a result of overuse on developing growth plates. Yep...quite the recipe for a healthy future. Not to add they may be the least celebrated Olympic champions in the sport.

Let's remember that Baiul was an orphane. There might have been a lot more then skating that lead to alcoholism. The three others you mentioned all suffered from bad technique, and in Zhang/Meissner's cases bad basics.

Look at Kim, Kwan, Slutskaya, Witt, etc. There are so many talented juniors that have had wonderful senior careers, and these three are examples of ladies who had very solid technique and basics when they were younger.

If the technique is there and the basic skating skills are solid, then you have a good chance at improving from where you are.
 

ordinary person

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
I agree with havefun, Liza has yet to grow cause considering the circumstances right now she has a weight advantage as well which isn't really fair.
I'm really curious how she will do after she has become 15 and doesn't weigh 78 pounds or something.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I agree with havefun, Liza has yet to grow cause considering the circumstances right now she has a weight advantage as well which isn't really fair.

What isn't fair? Every skater has been 14 at some point. And there are many who were actually better technically after puberty, including Arakawa, Kim, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Harding, etc. Caro and Alyssa didn't lose because Liza is 78 lbs, they lost because each needed one more triple to catch her.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I can't see what all the "hoopla" is about for Kostner. To me IMO she is a clutz. She reminds me of Slutskaya who also was clumsy.

I would LOVE to be as klutzy and clumsy as Caro and Irina!
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
It is not fair for whO??
She will become 15 in December , how much weight can she gain in 3 weeks? :p
She has grown a lot since last season, and has nice proportions, not all arms and legs so far.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
I agree with HaveFun. I can't get too excited about Tuktamysheva at this point because it's so very obvious that she is not physically mature yet. She is just a little kid skating against young women. Of course she can land triple/triples more easily than Czisny and Kostner! She weighs probably 20 lbs less than they do!! Tukt seems very very talented, but I won't get too excited until she passes through puberty and can still land that triple Lutz/triple toe, a la Yu-Na Kim. Then I'll be excited.

FWIW, I disagree with the rules allowing Tukt to compete in the Grand Prix at all. I felt the same in 2005 when Mao Asada came on the scene. I think the age rules for the Grand Prix, Worlds, and Olympics should be the same in any given season. It makes no sense for it to be otherwise.

I just don't agree with the whole concept of having little girls compete against women, in figure skating or any other sport. To me, it seems unfair to both groups. It puts pressure on young girls to perform difficult elements too soon, often leading to serious injuries (such as Baiul's back injury post-Olympics and Lipinski's hip breakdown). And it's unfair to require young women with healthy, mature female bodies to compete against prepubescent kids who are obviously at a huge advantage when it comes to doing multiple rotations, twists, etc. I agree with HaveFun that, if anything, I would prefer to see the age limits raised.

Actually it is quite meaningless that a 14 year old wins over ladies. Has been done before. Jury is out until post puberty. Just an FYI. It is quite well known in skating circles that these young Russian girls have some funky eating habits going on. Without getting into details...it ain't pretty.

No sour grapes intended however it can be quite a shock to a childs self esteem, when puberty sets in and their bodies are unable to perform the "tricks" of pre puberty. I am glad the age rules are in place. I would actually prefer to see the age increased. I think it would give these kids time to develop in a healthy way in order to fulfill their long term potential and stay physically and mentally healthy.

Examples of this overhyped "phenom" scenario - Lipinski, Baiul, Zhang, Meisner......to name but a few.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I like Czisny's new jump layout. Assuming the third element is supposed to be 2A+3T, this gives her a solid six triple layout that is within her reach.

Murakami is playing the game well, too. By doing 3Lo+2A seq and 3F+2A seq she can work in seven triples without a triple-triple. Plus, if she misses one of her sequences she has the other to back it up, making sure she gets in the 2A and does't lose a pass.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I like Czisny's new jump layout. Assuming the third element is supposed to be 2A+3T, this gives her a solid six triple layout that is within her reach.

Murakami is playing the game well, too. By doing 3Lo+2A seq and 3F+2A seq she can work in seven triples without a triple-triple. Plus, if she misses one of her sequences she has the other to back it up, making sure she gets in the 2A and does't lose a pass.

That wouldn't work currently b/c she is doing 2 Lutzs and 2 Loops. The only way she could do a 2A-3T if she brings back the 3S. I think the 3L-2T was supposed to be a three jump combo.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
That wouldn't work currently b/c she is doing 2 Lutzs and 2 Loops. The only way she could do a 2A-3T if she brings back the 3S. I think the 3L-2T was supposed to be a three jump combo.

I think it's OK to do two triple Lutzes, two triple loops, and two double Axels(?) The triple toe is OK because she doesn't have another one in her program, right?
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I think people ought to take things one competition/one season at a time. Right now Liza is doing well. Good for her. Her jump technique is second to none. Her confidence is amazing.

But is she perfect? No. As I pointed out in my score breakdown, while totally crushing the competition in jumps, she's actually not superior in non-jump elements, and one could argue is just average (given that she was in the top of the bottom half). That is why she has lost the LP both times to two skaters who have strength in part/or all of that arena.

What wil hold the future as she grows older. Nobody knows. She is just Liza.

But for now, two wins in the GP is something to be proud of.

Thank you, well said!
 

havefun

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
2 wins in the GP when I was a kid of 14 before puberty. That makes you a well trained monkey.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I was excited when these girls were in juniors but now I'll wait & hold off on the excitement like I did for Mao and Yu na. I was so glad that they continued to be successful. I think of Baiul and others. Regardless of the vices, Baiul got significantly bigger because she became a woman so with that I'll just sit back and enjoy for now.

I think if they let you compete in the Grand Prix they should let you compete in all the senior competitions or not let them on that level at all. It should be all or nothing.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I think if they let you compete in the Grand Prix they should let you compete in all the senior competitions or not let them on that level at all. It should be all or nothing.

I understand why one would say that, but I almost like it this way - it allows you to get some experience against the top talent but not at the pressure filled big events. Granted, Elizaveta looks like she can handle the pressure, but in general, I like this way. Truthfully, my head says if it's all or nothing, I'm gonna reserve the Senior GP for those old enough for Worlds anyway.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I agree with the experience but I like it more the way Yu na did it than the way Mao did.

Does Adelina get to go to worlds if she makes it nationally? She's 15 right?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is my take on the age thing. Can a 14-year-old child out skate 24-year-old women?

I don't know. Let's have a skating contest and find out.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
That wouldn't work currently b/c she is doing 2 Lutzs and 2 Loops. The only way she could do a 2A-3T if she brings back the 3S. I think the 3L-2T was supposed to be a three jump combo.

No, she can do the 2Axel-3Toe without the 3Sal.

I like Czisny's new jump layout. Assuming the third element is supposed to be 2A+3T, this gives her a solid six triple layout that is within her reach.

It's definitely better for her than the old layout, although I would have her move the planned 3Lo-2T-2Lo combination to earlier in the program, not only to make it more consistent but also so that she isn't doing two 3Loop jumping passes back-to-back.

Murakami is playing the game well, too. By doing 3Lo+2A seq and 3F+2A seq she can work in seven triples without a triple-triple. Plus, if she misses one of her sequences she has the other to back it up, making sure she gets in the 2A and does't lose a pass.

It's a good strategy in and of itself, but I don't think it is correct for Murakami. Her weakest jump is the 3Loop and she is good at putting 3Toe on the end of jumps, so she's really just throwing points away.

This is the idea Ashley Wagner should be following, however. She has a strong 3Loop, isn't good at doing 3Toe in combination, and has shown herself to be very good at doing 2Loops in combination and 2Axels on the end of other jumps in the past. The amount of points a 2Loop is worth over a 2Toe is very, very significant in the scale of values right now. Ashley also has good stamina and could backload in the style of Miki Ando. I've been suggesting this to her for some time now:

3Flip-2Loop-2Loop
3Sal
-----
3Loop
3Toe-2Axel
3Flip
3Loop-2Axel
3Lutz
 

hikki

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Country
Japan
The lenient edge/UR/DG calls are a disgrace. How do you explain this new trend to all the skaters who constantly got attacked for the calls post 2005/6 (Shizuka for her DG flips in 2005/6, Mao and Miki for DG loops, Rachael, Mirari)???

"Oops, sorry I got you working on those problems. Oh, some of you had to completely omit those jumps? Well we've decided we don't care anymore!"
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I dont understand technically why the circle with Alisa's arms when she sets up for jumps...

I believe this is some kind of classical ballet position. Dick Button popularized (invented?) this arm position for jumps back in the 40s and 50s. As a commentator he used to criticize skaters' arm positions, saying "your arms are supposed top look like you are hugging a beach ball." :)
 
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