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Thread: Ladies LP, 11/19/11

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo1 View Post
    I can't see what all the "hoopla" is about for Kostner. To me IMO she is a clutz. She reminds me of Slutskaya who also was clumsy. At Skate Canada (I believe) she actually stopped the flow of the program with stumbles here and there. Maybe it's because she's Italian and the judges who are beholden to Cinquanta who's also Italian, give her high marks. She does not deserve those high PCS. Oh, yes, I know I'll be jumped on all over the place for this but its my opinion.
    You just called "clumsy" probably two fastest female skaters... I can't really see anything clumsy in Slutskaya's skating. Carolina is sometimes clumsy with her jumps (air position, landings) but overall I wouldn't call her clumsy. I think she usually deserves about 8,25 for SS if not higher.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Mao did, though it should be noted that the Grand Prix Final was in Japan that year, which didn't hurt.

    If Liza wins the GPF, that would exceed what Mao or Yu-Na did in their first seasons on the senior GP.
    How does she exceed what Mao did in her first season on the senior GPs?
    Liza is competing at a time where the current world champion is missing.
    If Liza came in during the 2009-2010 GP, defeated Yuna Kim, reigning world champion at the time, at the 2010 GPF right before the Olympics, then she's equal footing to Mao. This girl came in during the weakest transitions, and you think she's the second Mao Asada? Seriously? What kind of logic is that? That's like saying all World Champions are equal, Kimmie is the same as Yuna and Mao.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post

    BTW I think Alissa is getting screwed against Carolina. Alissa is doing 3z and amazing spins... I just don't think when both skaters are "on," that Carolina should be beating Alissa.
    That depends on how you look at it. Alissa has the advantage when it comes to more difficult jumps like the 3Lz and spins, but the quality of her jumps, her skating skills, choreography and transitions distinctly put her at a disadvantage against Carolina. Alissa's small and stalked jumps aren't going to get the big GOE that Carolina gets when she's on. Alissa's lack of speed is also going to hurt her, especially when up against Carolina, who is one of the fastest skaters in the biz. Also, Carolina may not have a lot of transitions, but she certainly has more than Alissa, whose transitions scores should be even lower than what she gets now, IMO.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Huh. I would think being well trained would mean a lot in figure skating. Having good technique could well help Eliza survive puberty - at least she'll be in a better shape to confront it than, say Caroline Zhang. I personally thought she was wonderfully expressive and musical for someone so young. Also, she had a determined and focused look on her face that was reminiscent of Michelle Kwan. I really enjoyed her performance and I sure hope she continues to do well. It's fun to have a new lady to get excited about these days.

    I also enjoyed Carolina today. I thought she put a lot more into her performance this time than Alissa.... Congrats to the top three!
    I couldn't agree more... That girl has "the look" that seems to be missing in today's crop of skaters. She also has stronger technique than this current crop of angst-ridden divas, which is going to be her best friend in the coming years. People are nuts if they dismiss this since we've seen time and time again that talent is a luxury whereas technique is a neccessity when the puberty was begin in a year or so. I look forward to watching her progress.

    As for Caroline and Alyssa - today was an eye opener for me... I truly enjoyed their skating and marveled at the end of each program that I wasn't anticipating their falls - I just dug the programs... This is definately their year and I hope that each embraces that throughout the season...

  5. #215
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    I was there in Paris.

    Liza is so exciting to watch. On top of great jumps, everything about her screams of joy and excitement of being able to perform and show what she can. Mesmerising. Having said that, especially in free skate, especially after watching skaters like Caro, it made me worried about how very small portion of the ice she utilises. I don't know whether it was intended so choreographically (some skaters have preferred locations for certain jumps) or due to her relative lack of power and speed in skating. Anyway, she's so young and it was actually encouraging to see a room to grow.

    Caro's power and speed across the ice was simply breath-taking. Not matched by anyone in the competition, I thought. Watching her skate is like watching men skate! Her speed going into the doubled flip was so much that I held my breath as I somehow knew she wouldn't make it.

    Alissa was gorgeous. The way she subtly but surely picks up nuance of the music through her movement is wonderful. I just wished she had done a little more skating-wise in-between elements. But that might come once she settles more with her jumps.

    Overall, it was great to have three skaters with rather different qualities up on the podium. For me, that is a triumph of IJS. Varied ways of rewarding skaters with different strengths.

    I read Kanako has a very serious boot problem this season, like Jeremy last season, in Japanese source. I thought she skated a lot better than at COC, and her smile at K&C said it all. There is something enchanting about the way she performs - like I could see herself, her emotions, personality, time and efforts she has put in, etc, through her performance. (Or is that because I am Japanese and naturally sympathetic to Japanese skaters? I cannot tell myself.)

  6. #216
    Custom Title Sasha'sSpins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT View Post
    Call me old school, but really, 2011? Toe loop, salchow, loop? Pathetic.
    I guess you can call me old school too. I love love love skaters like Kostner and Czisny-but I don't like that skaters with such jump content are scored so closely to skaters like Tukt (who needs to improve I grant in artistry, ice coverage, etc. but still). It is clear to me anyway that the judges are holding them up on PCS to keep them on the podium. I hope this trend doesn't continue into the Olympics.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't know. Sonia Henie competed in her first Olympics at age ten, finishing last. If you want to keep ten year olds out I think you could have some kind of skating standard, rather than an age standard, to weed them out.

    The question of ten-year-olds, however, is moot. A precocious ten-year-old would not be competitive as a senior competitor.

    But some skaters, like gymnasts, hit their peak at fourteen or fifteen. It seems strange to have a "World Championship" whose winner says, "Yay, I'm the best in the world (except of course for those two youngsters who can mop up the ice with me -- thank goodness they're not here!)"
    ITA. I think it's silly to make the argument 'how about a 10 year old'. I think it highly unlikely judges would allow such a child to even make it past the junior ranks-they'd likely keep the child's PCS scores especially very low. Artistically skaters tend to get better with age (those that work on it anyway).

    History (particularly Olympic history) has had it's share of child prodigys. Why punish a child with some artificial means of keeping them out of senior competition? If they're the best athlete they're the best. At the 1936 Olympics 13 year old Marjorie Gestring won the springboard diving event, at the 1952 Olympics 15 year old Barbara Pearl Jones won gold with the relay team in track, 14 year old Nadia Comaneci took AA gold in gymnastics in 1976 and of course Oksana Baiul and Tara Lipinski took their respective Olympic golds as teenagers. Injuries can happen at any age and most junior level athletes are doing the same number of jumps as the seniors. I think it's a crime that Mao Asada could not compete at the 2006 Olympics and the same for gifted gymnasts in the summer Games who did not make the age limit. I think they're should be an exception to the rules for children who are clearly exceptional. A country should be allowed to send their best athletes to the Olympics. Period.

  8. #218
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think it's OK to do two triple Lutzes, two triple loops, and two double Axels(?) The triple toe is OK because she doesn't have another one in her program, right?
    Correct.

  9. #219
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    The person that questioned the third jumping pass (how do you know it was intended as 2A+3T): look at the practice threads here. Also, you could see Alissa's brain already working about the 3T when she stepped up into the Axel which made her Waxel it a little bit.

    As for Liza, she's a 14 year old precocious jumper with a little skill at selling a program for her age. At 14, your ability to just go out and do things without questioning yourself is different than your ability at 15, 16, 24...that, more than anything, is the difference (the level of self-conciousness that creeps in with puberty). Even if she doesn't grow much or put on much weight, whether she can handle that level of self-conciousness will be interesting to see. Kwan had one bad season (97) where she grew a little and filled out a bit and went through that self-conciousness, but she got her competitive mindset back after the stress fracture recovery in 98. It's how you handle that stage when you get past your precociousness that separates a good skater from a champion.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    ITA. I think it's silly to make the argument 'how about a 10 year old'. I think it highly unlikely judges would allow such a child to even make it past the junior ranks-they'd likely keep the child's PCS scores especially very low. Artistically skaters tend to get better with age (those that work on it anyway).

    History (particularly Olympic history) has had it's share of child prodigys. Why punish a child with some artificial means of keeping them out of senior competition? If they're the best athlete they're the best. At the 1936 Olympics 13 year old Marjorie Gestring won the springboard diving event, at the 1952 Olympics 15 year old Barbara Pearl Jones won gold with the relay team in track, 14 year old Nadia Comaneci took AA gold in gymnastics in 1976 and of course Oksana Baiul and Tara Lipinski took their respective Olympic golds as teenagers. Injuries can happen at any age and most junior level athletes are doing the same number of jumps as the seniors. I think it's a crime that Mao Asada could not compete at the 2006 Olympics and the same for gifted gymnasts in the summer Games who did not make the age limit. I think they're should be an exception to the rules for children who are clearly exceptional. A country should be allowed to send their best athletes to the Olympics. Period.
    It's not even about the skating. It's about putting someone who isn't legally capable of making major decisions in those type of situations. It's about preventing child abuse, imo - we hear horror stories about those extreme parents and frankly, I like that the ISU says no. Some things transcend the sport, and I would argue the rights of a child to be a child should be one of them.

  11. #221
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^OT, but I read the interview of Yuna today and although she is much much older than a 10 year old, I found depressing that what she wanted was disregarded by the others who decided about her.
    I dont agree about a ten year old competing in seniors anyway because it cant be a complete athlete in any sport I think. But just I find the conversation irrelevant to TEB and unfair to Tukt -who is almost 15 now- because she won. Adelina, Liza, and before them Mao and the rest started competing at juniors and are going by the rules of ISU, and passed from juniors to seniors when they were allowed.

  12. #222
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mot View Post
    I was there in Paris.

    Liza is so exciting to watch. On top of great jumps, everything about her screams of joy and excitement of being able to perform and show what she can. Mesmerising. Having said that, especially in free skate, especially after watching skaters like Caro, it made me worried about how very small portion of the ice she utilises. I don't know whether it was intended so choreographically (some skaters have preferred locations for certain jumps) or due to her relative lack of power and speed in skating. Anyway, she's so young and it was actually encouraging to see a room to grow.

    Caro's power and speed across the ice was simply breath-taking. Not matched by anyone in the competition, I thought. Watching her skate is like watching men skate! Her speed going into the doubled flip was so much that I held my breath as I somehow knew she wouldn't make it.

    Alissa was gorgeous. The way she subtly but surely picks up nuance of the music through her movement is wonderful. I just wished she had done a little more skating-wise in-between elements. But that might come once she settles more with her jumps.

    Overall, it was great to have three skaters with rather different qualities up on the podium. For me, that is a triumph of IJS. Varied ways of rewarding skaters with different strengths.

    I read Kanako has a very serious boot problem this season, like Jeremy last season, in Japanese source. I thought she skated a lot better than at COC, and her smile at K&C said it all. There is something enchanting about the way she performs - like I could see herself, her emotions, personality, time and efforts she has put in, etc, through her performance. (Or is that because I am Japanese and naturally sympathetic to Japanese skaters? I cannot tell myself.)
    Thank you for all the TEB reports!

    No, you're not biased. I find Kanako absolutely delightful too and I love her programs this year. I am hoping to high heavens that she will continue to develop successfully. Is the boot her only big issue? I hope so, as it's fixable. She looked so distressed after her SP. She has that mule-kick on her lutz (or is it her flip?) but it doesn't seem to affect her ability to land it. I'd like to hear more discussion of her skating by people who know more than I do.

  13. #223
    Custom Title Sasha'sSpins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    It's not even about the skating. It's about putting someone who isn't legally capable of making major decisions in those type of situations. It's about preventing child abuse, imo - we hear horror stories about those extreme parents and frankly, I like that the ISU says no. Some things transcend the sport, and I would argue the rights of a child to be a child should be one of them.
    I suppose you could say the same about child prodigies of any genre-in music or the arts. Sports and the law are two separate animals imo. Child abuse certainly happens in ALL spheres of life but it's still doesn't mean that ALL coaches of prodigies are likely to abuse them. Nor their paretns. I have often read of athletes who say they had a happy childhood-being allowed to do what they wanted to do which was to enjoy their sport. I don't agree with what you seem to imply-that a child isn't being allowed to be a child if their allowed to train in as an elite. Abuse can occur at ANY level-even recreationally.

  14. #224
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    Spun Silver, I am glad to know that her charm reaches beyond cultural boundaries!

    According to this article (in Japanese), Kanako skated with what I assume her old boots (as her coach is quoted to be saying it had become so soft that it did not hold its original shape any longer, and she used many rounds of tape to keep it in shape). Another article says her boot problem has persisted since September and that was also a chief reason behind her poor performance in China. She was quoted to have thought about withdrawing from the both competitions due to lack of preparation, and reported to be crying everyday.

    The article however concludes on a brighter note; she was satisfied with herself for not giving up and having given what she could. She felt encouraged, and above all, she found the fitting boots in a shop in Paris.

    She was delightful to watch in the exhibition. She was quietly expressive, smooth on ice and above all, smiling throughout the programme. The crowd cheered when she finished her performance much louder than when she first came on the ice. (I guess it was her performance, not the crowd's expectation from a known popular skater, that brought the round of applause.)

    I also think she is struggling with her new programmes this season. She's dropped the short choreographed by Tat reasoning it was too difficult. The last season, her coach Machiko Yamada said it was her team's strategy to play on her strength - her youthful charm, energy and love of dancing. This season, however, her team decided to present more grown-up Kanako. (But she's just turned 17 and her off-ice personality seems still very much a typical girl in a school uniform.)

    According to this article, she (or her team) is also considering changing programme(s) though.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    I suppose you could say the same about child prodigies of any genre-in music or the arts. Sports and the law are two separate animals imo. Child abuse certainly happens in ALL spheres of life but it's still doesn't mean that ALL coaches of prodigies are likely to abuse them. Nor their paretns. I have often read of athletes who say they had a happy childhood-being allowed to do what they wanted to do which was to enjoy their sport. I don't agree with what you seem to imply-that a child isn't being allowed to be a child if their allowed to train in as an elite. Abuse can occur at ANY level-even recreationally.
    The rule is not just to protect the prodigies, but all of the children whose parents THINK they're prodigies, and there are a lot of those parents. And if you think it doesn't happen just remember AP McDonough, who unfortunately was a child prodigy and who had a mother who was, shall we say, a little over-eager. It's not lost on me that the moment she was legally old enough to leave home, AP quit competitive skating and moved across the country away from her mother. I've seen parents push kids who clearly didn't want to be on the ice, one of whom told me she was going to make her daughter a star, if not in skating then in something else, especially after first Michelle and then Tara became world champions. I asked one mother why she had her 8 year old taking her pre-novice test (which she passed), and she said she was doing everything possible to get her (8 year old) ready for the Olympics. I pointed out to her that her daughter wouldn't turn 15 until October before the games and therefore would not be age-eligible until four years later.

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