No Nats for Lysacek this season

skateflower · Nov 22, 2011

I'm not sure if anybody would care at all. Evan's chapter has been closed. He won't be a factor in internationla competitions. Since his win at the 2010 Olys, men's discipline has changed significantly. Quad jump has become quite important. Lots of skaters have tried and successfully landed quads in competitions. Chan has three. Nan song was able to win 2 gp medals based on his 3 quads despite dismal pcs. Evan's quadless glory is over. He's never a big star in the U.S. to begin with anyway.

Nadine · Nov 23, 2011

CoyoteChris said:
If Evan is playing a game, then a big part of that game would be getting as many men on the world team as possible, wouldnt it? So THEY can get as many men on the world team that would determine how many US guys go to Sochi.
He is not doing that and could have shot himself in the foot, just as Rach maybe shot herself in the foot by not pulling at last worlds and letting Mirai have a chance at getting us three spots. If Rach comes in third at Nats, then she will have cut her own throat. If Evan L. comes back after two years off and skates at world class podium level, he would be one of the greatest skaters ever....

You misunderstand me, but then again I should have been more clean.

Let me elucidate:

As regards all three (aka Plushenko, Lysacek, Joubert), they're saving their best for last, meaning they want to compete at the 2014 Olympics, and in order to do so they need to keep their respective bodies healthy & intact, and that means maintaining injuries and working at their own pace. And most importantly it does not mean competing in extraneous competitions, such as the GPs. No, only Nationals, Euros (for Zhenya & Joubert) and Worlds. That's what I mean when I say they are playing the game. Same as Sonja. After a certain age she no longer competed at her own Nationals, as to save her body for the Big Three (btw same goes for Yuna Kim, who never competed at her Nationals after 2006). Wise, very wise in the long run, especially if one wishes to maintain longevity in such a demanding sport.

And now I should add that the USFSA is "playing the game" as well (but in a different way), if rumours are to be believed, and I wouldn't doubt them, as the same exact thing went on in Sonja Henie's day. :biggrin:

Yep, avarice rears it ugly head. In Sonja's day, the ISF wanted a share of the "appearance fee" money she was getting for skating in exhibitions. And it seems the same thing is being asked of Evan. But who knows? :confused2: Unlike Sonja, Evan needs to grow a pair of cajones and address the issue head-on.

Now, I'm bored, and will say toodle-oo, carry on!

Serious Business · Nov 23, 2011

I'm not an Evan fan at all, but what Nadine said could be true. The USFS could be the greedy one here. They could be putting all sorts of demands on Evan that are excessive. Yes, it's the same demands for every competitive US skater, but unlike them, Evan is in a position where he can say no. He's already won all the medals and gotten all the kudos, and if the USFS wants to shackle him with an overly restrictive contract, why shouldn't he turn it down?

gmyers · Nov 23, 2011

I think it is two different issues. One is strategy for longevity that made Plushenko in the 2005-6 season and 2009-2010 season do one GP, nationals, Euros and then Olympics. He talked about coming back in for 2008 worlds and 2009 worlds but did not. I am not sure if he ever went to the extend of Lysacek and said he will be at CoR in 2007 or 2008. I don't think he did, The other thing is the federation involvement which is all secret and everything is rumor. Skating is losing money in the US and everyone knows it and it could be that because the USFSA gave Lysacek money they want to use him to get more money. This could play out until 2013. But I think Sasha Cohen and Plushenko showed that really need at least two seasons of active skating to get the groove of where skating is and do your best.

seniorita · Nov 23, 2011

Whta kind of game is Joubert playing? He hasnt missed a season in a loooong carreer already.
And now he is injure and skipped the gps.

Buttercup · Nov 23, 2011

seniorita said:
Whta kind of game is Joubert playing? He hasnt missed a season in a loooong carreer already.
And now he is injure and skipped the gps.

The last time Joubert completed a full GP season (2 events & the GPF) was in 2006-7. He's had several injuries and illnesses that have led to WDs from fall events. This season specifically, he hurt his back while training a spin. Apparently he was back in training by the time of TEB, but not in good enough shape to compete. He said he's aiming for French Nats next month.

Joubert's been talking of skipping the GP season in the future, and Gailhaguet said he should be focusing on big events anyway. I think he was only still in it to try and win CoC.

sorcerer · Nov 23, 2011

Serious Business said:
I'm not an Evan fan at all, but what Nadine said could be true. The USFS could be the greedy one here. ...

I imagine the "rumours" are from Evan fans, but in any case, ISU has a rule about such "share" of federations, if any, to be not more than 10%. (General rule 102)
This rule as I see refers only to earnings from being a skater.

So I see no sense in getting into a conflict with the federation a skater belongs for such a portion. I think the rumours are groundless.

ETA: On the other board I read what's written on USFSA website. "... For a skater receiving compensation in a non-sanctioned event, a processing fee equal to 10% of the compensation to the skater or $150.00, whichever is less, payable by the contractor to the USFS, shall be submitted by the contractor with the draft ESCA and is nonrefundable."

seniorita · Nov 23, 2011

Buttercup said:
The last time Joubert completed a full GP season (2 events & the GPF) was in 2006-7. He's had several injuries and illnesses that have led to WDs from fall events. This season specifically, he hurt his back while training a spin. Apparently he was back in training by the time of TEB, but not in good enough shape to compete. He said he's aiming for French Nats next month.

Joubert's been talking of skipping the GP season in the future, and Gailhaguet said he should be focusing on big events anyway. I think he was only still in it to try and win CoC.

I know, and besides he has every right to minimize his competitions and protect his body from being worn out, my post was cause I just dont see him being in any kind of "to comeback or not to comeback" game like the other two. He hasnt retired - unretired either.

Buttercup · Nov 23, 2011

seniorita said:
I know, and besides he has every right to minimize his competitions and protect his body from being worn out, my post was cause I just dont see him being in any kind of "to comeback or not to comeback" game like the other two. He hasnt retired - unretired either.

Oh, I thought you were unsure! Next time I'll ask you first :biggrin:

Joubert's game is more like "do I want to continue until Sochi or not?"

Olympia · Nov 23, 2011

Serious Business said:
I'm not an Evan fan at all, but what Nadine said could be true. The USFS could be the greedy one here. They could be putting all sorts of demands on Evan that are excessive. Yes, it's the same demands for every competitive US skater, but unlike them, Evan is in a position where he can say no. He's already won all the medals and gotten all the kudos, and if the USFS wants to shackle him with an overly restrictive contract, why shouldn't he turn it down?

One of the great things about reading forum posts is realizing that there can be many sides to a situation. I had never thought of this aspect, and it's certainly within the realm of possibility. I guess one should never jump to conclusions. It's like what happened with YuNa Kim's breakup with her coach, Brian Orser. Many of us took sides, but the truth is that most of us had no way of knowing what really went on and where, if anywhere, the fault lay. The same may be true here. Thanks for giving me something extra to think about.

As an American skating fan, I hope Lysacek gives competing another try, because although without a quad he might not win any world titles henceforward, his solidity and competitive fire (if he remains at the peak he reached in 2007-2010) might help ensure three places for American men, who haven't had such a good track record lately. He's contributed a lot to American skating.

seniorita · Nov 23, 2011

Buttercup said:
Oh, I thought you were unsure! Next time I'll ask you first

No I just copied the sentence I had read. Would I ever use a phrase like what kind of games is he playing? I dont talk like that!

Mathman · Nov 23, 2011

sorcerer said:
"... For a skater receiving compensation in a non-sanctioned event, a processing fee equal to 10% of the compensation to the skater or $150.00, whichever is less, payable by the contractor to the USFS, shall be submitted by the contractor with the draft ESCA and is nonrefundable."

Ah, a "processing fee." What do they "process?"

They should add on the old standby, a 5% surcharge for "shipping and handling."

Dragonlady · Nov 23, 2011

Serious Business said:
I'm not an Evan fan at all, but what Nadine said could be true. The USFS could be the greedy one here. They could be putting all sorts of demands on Evan that are excessive. Yes, it's the same demands for every competitive US skater, but unlike them, Evan is in a position where he can say no. He's already won all the medals and gotten all the kudos, and if the USFS wants to shackle him with an overly restrictive contract, why shouldn't he turn it down?

I rumour I heard was that the issue is Evan's personal endorsement contracts. It was being said that the USFSA wanted a piece of these endorsements and this is why he pulled out of Skate America and why he won't be at Nationals. Both parties have said that "appearance money" isn't the issue. Even if the USFSA is asking for a cut, if Evan has contracts which conflict with any current USFSA national sponsorships, he could be forced to give up that income and that sponsorship, which could put Evan in breach of those contracts if he pulls out early.

Since neither side is being forthcoming about the reasons, I think it would be unwise to assume that either party is the bad guy here. Some contractual issues are difficult, if not impossible to resolve that easily.

bestskate8 · Nov 23, 2011

Oh those rumors always come on time. I personally don’t believe them a bit, just a media game

I too think all three Lysacek, Joubert and Plushenko will compete in Sochi, but for team competition and hope Sandhu will be there too.
I am with Nadine, but it also media gameplaying, just some people seeking more attention

Good luck to all skaters who want to come back for Sochi.

sorcerer · Nov 23, 2011

Mathman said:
Ah, a "processing fee." What do they "process?"

"If the compensation has been offered for an activity that is not sanctioned, the skater must request special permission from the USFS to accept the offer. This request for permission must be accompanied by a completed draft of a special agreement between the skater and the person or entity who will be compensating the skater. The special agreement is called an Eligible Skater’s Compensation Agreement or ESCA."
So they "process" a permission to this ESCA, no? But $150 does seem small for all the labor the USFSA needs when making "careful considerations".

BTW ISU says "it is the responsibility of each Member to establish the basis for the receipt of payments by such Skater for appearances, endorsements and exhibition performances. Members may share such payments in consideration of past and present support of such persons, but with not more than 10%. Members shall monitor their Skaters to ensure that they do not participate in competitions that would render them ineligible."

BTW2 IIRC according to Shizuka Arakawa, JSF takes this 10% (maybe it was 20% in her days) of the payment the skaters get from skating in shows.

Mathman · Nov 23, 2011

^ The whole thing kind of rubs me the wrong way. Organizations like the ISU and USFS set up rules, then they make the athletes pay them for keeping track of whether they are following the rules.

What would be the great disaster if the skaters participated in whatever shows they wanted to and kept the money that they earned?

Tonichelle · Nov 23, 2011

Mathman said:
^ The whole thing kind of rubs me the wrong way. Organizations like the ISU and USFS set up rules, then they make the athletes pay them for keeping track of whether they are following the rules.

What would be the great disaster if the skaters participated in whatever shows they wanted to and kept the money that they earned?

seems to me that the only people complaining are not the skaters (in Janet Lynns day they didn't have half the "freedom" they do now, for example) or the organizations but the fans who wanted to see Mr. tall dark and handsome... and his agents...

Mathman · Nov 23, 2011

The skaters never complain. Not if they know what's good for them.

Tonichelle · Nov 23, 2011

Mathman said:
The skaters never complain. Not if they know what's good for them.

I'm talking even years later when they are no longer under the "rule" of the USFSA...

CoyoteChris · Nov 23, 2011

I have a question. When one gives up their eligibility or amature status or whatever, then one can make money skating at will. But until the, dont they have to live by the above quoted rules? Isnt Michelle still technically an eligible skater? I dont know what one signs to be a USFSA skater, but if one is paid for their pics to be in the Media guide, then Amanda and Mark are millionaires! The media guide, for those of you that have never seen one, is a very nice spiral bound color book chock full of explainations of scoring, archetecture of the USFSA, facts and figures about current skaters, and 80 pages of records, both national and international. For instance, if you wanted to know who won junior ice dance at the 1943 nationals, you would find that on page 161 , (Dorthy Glazier and Lyman Wakefield)

No Nats for Lysacek this season

skateflower

Match Penalty

Nadine

Serious Business

gmyers

seniorita

Buttercup

sorcerer

seniorita

Buttercup

Olympia

seniorita

Mathman

Dragonlady

bestskate8

sorcerer

Mathman

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Mathman

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

CoyoteChris

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