Fumie Suguri

[Joesitz]

Originally posted by rtureck
LOL Joesitz, I believe they called that the love potion in Liebstod / T&I.

BTW, you love Wagner, how do you hold your attention for 5 hours through T&I, or Parsifal.

I do not care for hypergraphia, at least Dostoevsky had TLE ( well documented, so there is no need to play cyber space neurologist without a medical license) as an excuse. Of course hypergraphia and micrographia do not equate to TLE, I believe they called it "consistent with but not diagnostic of TLE"? What was Wagner's reason? Sorry, I know you really love Wagner.

PS to add, I am very open minded about taking Wagner appreciation 101

I realized my first Parsifal was pennance for all my sins. and I said to myself, never again, Parsifal. However a friend insisting I see it again, suggested that I arrive after the first act. It worked. The music was so senuous Even missing the first Act, it was still a long opera. T&I was the first opera I ever saw. All I knew was the Love Duet and I waited 3 hours for it and the Liebestod came after 2 more hours. However, I saw it again and again, and got hooked on Wagner. Rather then spend too much time on Wagner, I would suggest you see the Richard Burton movie. It was done quite well and is quite informative of the composer's life.

Back to Fumie. I was never a fan of Fumie. I put her in the class of 'competitive skaters only'. Nothing wrong with that. Figure Skating is basically a sport. There are many on my list of 'competitve skaters only', with Irina Slutskaya at the top.

But as Irina began to move off the list(it takes time) and join my very special list of skaters so it seems Fumie is also. It will still take time but this GP Final is a beginning.

Joe

[Rgirl]

Originally posted by Joesitz:

I realized my first Parsifal was pennance for all my sins. and I said to myself, never again, Parsifal. However a friend insisting I see it again, suggested that I arrive after the first act. It worked. The music was so senuous Even missing the first Act, it was still a long opera. T&I was the first opera I ever saw. All I knew was the Love Duet and I waited 3 hours for it and the Liebestod came after 2 more hours. However, I saw it again and again, and got hooked on Wagner. Rather then spend too much time on Wagner, I would suggest you see the Richard Burton movie. It was done quite well and is quite informative of the composer's life.

Joe,
Very interesting approaches to "Parsifal" and "T&I." ITA, though and had similar experiences. I didn't get the advice to skip the first act of "Parsifal" but a musicoligist friend told me to read a book about the sacred spear and Hitler's obsession with not only the whole "Parsifal" myth, but also his belief that the sacred spear really existed and that if the Nazis could find it they would rule the world forever.

BTW, did you know the Kirov does a ballet version of "Parsifal"? I haven't seen it but would love to.

I also found that the more I saw "I&T" or listened to it, the more it grew on me. For me it was like reading "Ulysess." At first your like "What the...?" but the more you read it, the clearer it becomes, the more you can see/hear theme and variation, dramatic repetition, all that good stuff--or maybe it just gradually changes the way your brain is able to absorb and understand such music or writing.

However, I must say I always had a hard time dealing with Wagner's well documented anti-semitism and his musical genius. I forget who said it, but somebody said about Wagner re his antisemitism, "He spun gold from the s--t of his brains." Ultimately I just had to come to terms with the fact that a lot of great artists in every medium were/are truly awful people, but this doesn't take away from the greatness of their art--at least not IMO.

I also agree on the Wagner biopic with Richard Burton. Totally cool.
Rgirl
PS Something else that helped me with Wagner was listening to Bruckner. As my musicoligist instructor and friend said about Bruckner, "He is where he is going." When I could still run, I used to run miles listening to Bruckner on headphones. It's almost as if you can feel new brain connections forming by listening to him.

[Joesitz]

RGirl - While it is difficult to disbelieve Wagner's antisemitism, I have to wonder what the Megalomaniac would think of Hitler? Wagner was no fool. He enjoyed wealth and Ludwig paid him plenty. Hitler coming out of nowhere would not be appealing to him. Antisemitism they had in common but I can't see them as friends.

Verdi, a staunch defender of human rights, heard of his competitor to the north and went to see Lohengren. Afterwards, he wrote his most important muscial operas: Aida; Othello, and Falstaff. Connection? Who knows?

Joe

[Rgirl]

Interesting points, Joe. I knew Verdi was ahead (or out) of his time in terms of human right, but didn't know he wrote "Aida," "Othello," and "Falstaff" after seeing "Lohengrin." Very interesting.

As for Wagner, it's been well established in his own writings and by his biographers that he had quite the ego and loved being around the powerful. His association with Hitler himself could have been just that, wanting to be in with the Big Guy. But Wagner's antisemitism was virulent. So was that of many other great artists of the time. IMO, it's part of the dichotomy of human nature and I can understand people not being able to get past Wagner's hatred of Jews to get to his music, which is tough enough as it is.

I was in a reading group in a building I used to live in. It was pretty much all middle class folk, mostly women. The stated intention was to read and discuss Shakespeare. I was psyched since I hadn't been around such readers in about eight years. But once we started, it became clear that they weren't really interested in Shakespeare but rather Oprah's Book Club. Not that there's anything wrong with that; I was just disappointed in the advertising. Anyway, when we did read Shakespeare, one woman would not even read "The Merchant of Venice" because she was convinced it was antisemitic and the night we were to discuss "Merchant," out of the dozen people in the group, only myself and the group leader showed up, lol. My point is that the pendulum swings both ways.
Rgirl
PS Sorry to get off topic. Will get back to Fumie and off this fascinating but OT sidetrack.

[Mathman]

Getting back to music, anybody got any ideas on why more skaters don't use Bach? -- Rgirl

I have wondered about this, too. I think the reason is that it is too hard and puts too much of a burden on the skater and the choreographer. As opposed to opera, ballet, etc., where the program writes itself.

In baroque music, it seems like the emphasis is on counterpoint and ornamentation rather than on harmony. This means you don't get a huge swelling crescendo to pace your most eye-catching move to, but rather you have to have interesting things going on all the time, maybe more than one. You can't play Bach while you are doing a five second straight on entrance to your triple Lutz.

Also, I think that many of the pieces that you suggested have a chamber quality about them, even if scored for larger instrumentation. To take what is basically chamber music and amplify it electronically so that it fills a huge arena -- I think that risks compromising what we liked about the music in the first place.

Just my amateur opinion.

Mathman

[Grgranny]

Quote "Anybody got any ideas on why more skaters don't use Bach?"
I would think it would be really hard to practice listening to a dirge!
In other words, I don't much care for Bach.

[rtureck]

Originally posted by Joesitz
[B]I realized my first Parsifal was pennance for all my sins. and I said to myself, never again, Parsifal. However a friend insisting I see it again, suggested that I arrive after the first act. It worked. The music was so senuous Even missing the first Act, it was still a long opera. T&I was the first opera I ever saw. All I knew was the Love Duet and I waited 3 hours for it and the Liebestod came after 2 more hours.

I agree that Wagner wrote some of the most sensuous music, even Wotan's farewell, and magic fire music are very sensuous. One of my friends who worships Wagner call that "sex for the brain" It is my observation that people either love or dislike Wagner there is not much middle ground. People who love him will get past his antisemitism, stealing his best friends wife, disloyal to his mentor/ friend Mendelssohn etc. They usually point us to Siegfried Idyll as an introductory piece. "If Wagner can write something so beautiful for his wife, he couldn't be so bad" One of my problems with Wagner is that I do not want to Wait for 5 hours for the few gems.

Will people feel the same about PIT's swan lake and nut cracker, if they know he had relationships with teenage boys?

Didn't I&Z skated to some techno version of a Bach tocatta and fugue? Lovely Sarah's Olympic short program Ave Maria was basically Gounod superimposing a lovely string (violin or cello) melody over JS Bach's Prelude no 1 in C major from The Well-Tempered Clavier.

If skaters want to try JS Bach's sonata / partita for solo cello or violin they better have quiet edges LOL

Back to Fumie, I watched her GPF free program many times, and it is growing on me. I think BUTTon is wrong about Fumie does not have the stretch for a Mozart piano concerto program. Mozart piano concerto is not about stretch, it is about flow, contrast, nuance and subtle mood changes. It is difficult to skate to Mozart, and Fumie has not fulfilled Lori's artistic visin for her, but I think Fumie is the right skater for that, and I can only think of one other eligible skater, and 2 pro skaters who may be a better choice for Mozart's music.

Off topic, Yuka's mom looks young, I see why Yuka has such beautiful complexion.

[Mathman]

Yuka looks so much like BOTH her parents. I bet I can guess at least one of the two pro skaters who could do Mozart.

RTureck, I was intrigued by your question earlier about whether the program would be stronger if it used just the piano concerto and left off the symphony. I don't really have an opinion on that. I do not have enough of a musical imagination to think about how the program ought to go if it just used the K488. It does seem to me that when the symphonic part stops and the concerto begins, in Fumie's program, there is a distinct sense (to me) of, "OK the intoduction is over and now I'm ready to start my real program."

What do you think?

Mathman

[Joesitz]

Quote from rTurek:

Will people feel the same about PIT's swan lake and nut cracker, if they know he had relationships with teenage boys?
________________________________________________

People have trouble differentiating between talent and disapproval of artists' personal lives. RGirl gave a good example of Shakespeare. My friend Barry Cohn, yes he's Jewish, dragged me to an Elizabeth Swartzkopf concert at Carnegie Hall way back when. The pickets demonstrating in front of the building were vociferous because she had been married to a Nazi General. It didn't bother Barry, he liked her voice (and so did I). There's more to this story but not here.

As for PIT's Swan Lake and Nutcracker, I believe there was quite a bit of prejudice against him in the international musical community and still because of his sexual orientation. I often hear some people say, his music is so feminine. Hmph! better than anything they could compose. Good movie to see: The Music Lovers with Glenda Jackson and Richard Chamberlain. It's a Ken Russel film so you know what to expect.

Back to Fumie: She has a taste of GOLD. She'll want more.

Joe

[amazonprincess]

Fumie is a very pretty skater, and as the Japanese team as a whole keeps improving I'm really looking forward to the '06 Olympic season.

I really like her SP this season. And I think the pants suit it. Since it connects back to the "rock" aspect of the music. Orchestrated Rolling Stones isn't exactly traditional music, and pants on a ladies costume isn't traditional dress. It works, in an odd way. At least there aren't any strange pleather things hanging off it.

[rtureck]

Originally posted by Joesitz

People have trouble differentiating between talent and disapproval of artists' personal lives.

I think in most cases their personal lives is none of our business with some exception. PIT's sexual orientation does not bother me one bit. PIT's rather scandalous relationship with teenage boys is controversial IMO. I have no problem enjoying his music. He has an amazing gift for melody. I am not aware that he is not well received in the international music community. I grew up with the usual Christmas season Sat matinee nut cracker stuff. I think his music is well liked generally. I do not think he had achieved greatness as a composer, that does not mean people can not enjoy his music.

Elizabeth Swartzkopf concert at Carnegie Hall way back when. The pickets demonstrating in front of the building were vociferous because she had been married to a Nazi General. It didn't bother Barry, he liked her voice (and so did I). There's more to this story but not here.

Didn't Schwarzkpof sang one of the best Mozart Cosi Fan Tutte aria Per pieta? (My dear please forgive) With a voice like that is is easy to forgive, besides married to a Nazi is different from being a Nazi.

Back to Fumie: She has a taste of GOLD. She'll want more.

The Japanese federation just announced Fumie and Arakawa as 2/3 their world team. WOW.

[rtureck]

Originally posted by Mathman
[B]Yuka looks so much like BOTH her parents. I bet I can guess at least one of the two pro skaters who could do Mozart.

Trivia question, so who is the other one? Hint, Fumie skated to Chopin piano concerto #2 F minor in worlds 2002. This pro skater used Chopin piano concerto #1 at world pro a few years ago.

More hints: The Satos can teach edges!!!

I was intrigued by your question earlier about whether the program would be stronger if it used just the piano concerto and left off the symphony. I don't really have an opinion on that. It does seem to me that when the symphonic part stops and the concerto begins, in Fumie's program, there is a distinct sense (to me) of, "OK the intoduction is over and now I'm ready to start my real program."

What do you think?

Well, after watching Fumie's program for 2 dozen times, I bow to Lori's genius. It is good that she used K550 in the first 1/4 of the program. The G minor symphony is cheered as Mozart's best symphony (imagine some musicologist think it is better than sym # 41 the Jupiter!!) It grabs your attention, and that is very important. You talk about melody that grabs you e.g. Schubert's ave Maria, Beethoven's moonlight sonata. The opening of K550 serves the same purpose.

[rtureck]

Originally posted by amazonprincess
I really like her SP this season. And I think the pants suit it. Since it connects back to the "rock" aspect of the music. Orchestrated Rolling Stones isn't exactly traditional music, and pants on a ladies costume isn't traditional dress. It works, in an odd way. At least there aren't any strange pleather things hanging off it.

I think the pants work well, since her stretch needs some improving, the pants hide that a bit.

[shdotz]

Fumie is a true lady ; in every way.

Her skating is beautiful and graceful; I liked the black pants and top. I hope she goes far in the skating world.

sh

[Rgirl]

Originally posted by Mathman
[Rgirl] I have wondered about [skating to Bach] too. I think the reason is that it is too hard and puts too much of a burden on the skater and the choreographer. As opposed to opera, ballet, etc., where the program writes itself.

In baroque music, it seems like the emphasis is on counterpoint and ornamentation rather than on harmony. This means you don't get a huge swelling crescendo to pace your most eye-catching move to, but rather you have to have interesting things going on all the time, maybe more than one. You can't play Bach while you are doing a five second straight on entrance to your triple Lutz.

Also, I think that many of the pieces that you suggested have a chamber quality about them, even if scored for larger instrumentation. To take what is basically chamber music and amplify it electronically so that it fills a huge arena -- I think that risks compromising what we liked about the music in the first place.

Just my amateur opinion.
Mathman

I think you're right about the difficulty of Bach and skating. In dance, it's different because you don't HAVE to leave time to put in the jumps Yet I've danced to Bach--in addition to what I've mentioned, a couple of his concertos--and especially in the concertos, there are high points and crescendos that I would think would make for ample excitement at least in a SP. To me, the precision of Bach combined with the passion--not romatic passion, but for lack of a better word, mathematical passion--made me adore dancing to it and made it a big hit with the audiences.

Besides, Bach has such an enormous ouvre, you'd think somebody could find something to skate to from one of the greatest composers who ever lived.

I have other composers I'd like to see skaters use, but that's for another thread.
Rgirl