Mens SP, Friday, 11/25/11, 9:45AM EST | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Mens SP, Friday, 11/25/11, 9:45AM EST

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Chan has received a couple of fall deductions this season when he technically stayed on his skates. When the weight of the body is transferred to the hand(s), it's counted as a fall.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
A clean Brezina over a clean Jeremy even without a quad should never be possible imo. The thought wouldn't enter my mind.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
A clean Brezina over a clean Jeremy even without a quad should never be possible imo. The thought wouldn't enter my mind.

It may be so if someone got their wish of COP highly increasing quad BV, rewarding zero for a fall, and greatly reducing the weighting of PCS. As I said, Chan wouldn't be the one to pay the price, and it would be a big shame because the high PCS skaters are the ones bringing us the most watchable and memorable programs.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Gachinski with his lowest of the second group PCS in a GP event in Russia is so bad! Hanyu fell and Fernandez doubled a jump and Brezina was slow and all ahead of him. Not a lot of good that world bronze. Seen as a fluke by all the judges because of errors Oda made and stuff.

Hanyu seems to be most impressive because of his all level 4 non-jump elements.
 

FTnoona

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Hanyu fell? Why didn't he receive a deduction? I haven't watched men's yet.

I think it may be inconsistency with the hand on the ice rule like on of the posters mentioned before. If you saw his SP, he was still on his feet but used his hands to keep himself up.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Finally watched the men's. I would say Brezina was overmarked in his PCS. Fernandez seemed to be thinking through the program although I liked the clarity of his skating. Hanyu deserved a higher PCS in comparison to Brezina's. Jeremy Abbott was wonderful. It was an easy piece of music to skate to but a hard one to excel. And he did an outstanding job with that. I would have given him even higher PCS if I were a judge.
 

Kinga

Medalist
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
What a thrilling battle of suspenders :)
Jeremy moves soooo smoothly that I melt when I watch him. It is a pure joy and emotions. Marvellous! And I even dont like that music! I love his LP piece though, so if he skates it clean, it will be even more spectacular.

Fernandez not only skates better this season, but also looks more mature and masculine. Under Morozov he looked childlish.

Hanyu impressed me too. His 3A comes out of nowhere!!!
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
1. Jeremy Abbott - Much better than at Cup of China. There were more little details in the choreography, more confidence and snap in the presentation, and rock solid jumps. I still don't think all of the suspender action is as well utilized as it could be (and the centering on the flying upright spin needs a bit of work) but this program is working very well for him now.

2. Yuzuru Hanyu - He was correctly judged to be only slightly behind Abbott. I love his passion, his attention to the music, his fluidity, his quickness, and his flexibility. Almost falling on the opening jump did take a little bit of steam out of the performance as a whole but it wasn't a huge mistake in the scope of this competition since it was a solo fully-rotated Quad that the mistake was on. He is worthy of being World Champion.

3. Javier Fernandez - He didn't have the same confidence as at Skate Canada but this was still a commendable performance. The flying upright spin was much improved and actually underscored by the judges.

4. Michal Brezina - A pretty clean but rather tentative performance. There was a bit of a mistake in the footwork sequence and the flying Camel got awkward (deserved -GOE for sure). He needs to get more spark in his skating. Definitely a very good skater, but even in his best performances of this SP it feels like he isn't "on" for 100% of the performance. This becomes an even bigger problem in his Long Programs.

5. Artur Gachinski - Best Triple Axel of the competition. Too bad about the big mistake on the Quad combination. He isn't completely refined yet but he does have attack and very strong edges. There is some personal style there too; he may be reminiscent of Plushenko but there are definitely differences and I think Gachinski does bring his own unique touches into his skating.

6. Andrei Rogozine - Has plenty to work on but is definitely heading in the right direction.

7. Brandon Mroz - He hasn't grown as a performer at all. He's actually regressed since his initial breakthrough at 2009 Nationals. I like this music for him but he doesn't seem to understand it or have enough personal urge to perform with inspiration. His arms are also constantly out of place. In terms of everything else, the spins are okay but his basic skating is far behind the rest of the field.

8. Andrei Lutai - Blah.

9. Konstantin Menshov - Ugh.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Oh, LOL, oops. Sergei Voronov. Those 2007-2009 era Russians blend together in my memory.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
You know, Gachinski actually benefited from an interesting rule quirk: he didn’t do a combo and he fell, but because he fell on his combo listed element, he was only penalized once in terms of GOE. If he had listed his combo as the 3Lo+3T and skated as he did, he would’ve been penalized twice (which is what I thought was going to happen). In the end, it doesn’t affect rankings anyway (-3 on the loop would’ve brought him down to 72 and change)

That is not correct. Gachinski's fall on the 4T ensured that jump will pretty much have -3 across the board even without the connecting steps to make it into a solo jump. Given that the 4T was not followed by another jump, he was in fact free to tackle a 3T behind his 3Lo and would have gotten credit for the 3/3 combo and if well executed, positive GOE as well. I am not sure what your confusion is but listed element vs. actually executed are different things and skaters are allowed to deviate from their planned elements without adverse impact so long as they abide by the SP rules.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Pogue meant that if the Quad had been planned as a solo Quad and the Loop had been planned as 3Loop-3Toe, then would Gachinski have also gotten -3 GOE on the Loop for not doing it in combination.

In actuality what is "listed" shouldn't matter at all and whenever there is a case like that, the jumping pass that is preceded by less of a linking movement should be counted as the combination jump.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Pogue meant that if the Quad had been planned as a solo Quad and the Loop had been planned as 3Loop-3Toe, then would Gachinski have also gotten -3 GOE on the Loop for not doing it in combination.

In actuality what is "listed" shouldn't matter at all and whenever there is a case like that, the jumping pass that is preceded by less of a linking movement should be counted as the combination jump.

Ah O.K., I understand why IP was confused now. But no, there was no such risk. Even if Gachinski has listed 3Lo+3T and 4T as his solo jump and only did a 3Lo, it would be assumed that the 4T was the missed combo jump and 3Lo will count as the solo jump because the logic is if the skater had really intend to the 3Lo to be the combo, he/she would have attached a jump behind it. Whenever a skater failed a combination due to fall and the 2nd jump was never initiated, there is no GOE penalty if the other jump has no combination. Think of it this way, supposed Gachinski has done the 3Lo first as a solo jump, it became abundantly clear that the failed 4T that followed was intended to be the combo jump, so the GOE of the first jump will not be retroactively adjusted. So whether the 3Lo was executed before or after the failed 4T really doesn't matter. It's same logic when a skater did two identical Triple/Quad in the FS but without the 2nd one being in combo or sequence, the panel will automatically assume that the 2nd jump intends to be combo/sequence, thus, add + SEQ behind and block out one of the 3 combo slots. These scoring systems are designed to be logical, and are often made in a way to give the skaters' the benefits of the doubts but they are not without limitations, just Oda who got the raw end of such "logical design" way too many times.

FYI, the issue of linking movements or connecting steps is harder to ascertain because both jumps could potentially be preceded by such movements/steps making determination on such, unreliable. However, if the solo jump was not preceded by the proper movements after a fall on a previous intended combo jump, judges could in theory deduct the 2nd jump accordingly for failure to execute the proper steps. But in most cases, skaters chose to do a combo jump whenever they fell on the first one, hence also making the issue of CS moot since you can't give more than -3 for GOE, so the fall already ensured the first fall being -3 with or without connecting steps.
 
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