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Thread: Short Dance, Fri. 11/25 at 11:20 am EST

  1. #31
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    To be realistic, judges very likely award GOE based in part on conditions under which skaters are competing. To pull themselves together after such a freak fall whhich happened virtually right before their first element and then complete all of them relatively error free is a pretty impressive feat. The judges were likely impressed by that accomplishment as most teams would have made a hash of the rest of the program. And let's be clear. Their elements were the strongest of the event. The fall was on a non scored element.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by claphappy View Post
    Well, considering that the score is 69, I think there's a very good possibility it's a joke.
    It's hardly a joke. He didn't fall on an element, which means he basically just fell when they were doing transitions. And when you watch them compared to the others, it is so clear that the only competitors they have are Virtue/Moir. They are soo much better than the rest of the teams in this competition. Remember, had they not fallen this program would most likely have recieved 71-72 points.

  3. #33
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    By giving D/W 10's in PCS there is a real no one is allowed to beat them except VM ever feeling. I wish that W/P got B/S PCS so it would have been a little closer. Clear and obvious stumble doesn't mean no 10's? It wasn't a technical element that the clear and obvious stumble happened to it was a PCS stumble not a TES stumble.

  4. #34
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    I agree with people who said that Score is high. D/W is usually a very strong team, but not at this comp. There is a clear stumble and also Charyl looked like he was difficulty in catching up with her through the entire program.

    Their actual performance should be judged, not what they have done before.
    I dislike this system more and more these days, because they do not punish glaring mistakes enough.

  5. #35
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    A skater may be lucky or unlucky where a fluke fall happens. In a transition, besides the fall deduction, the effect is not serious. If it incurs .25 less in TR, it will be no more than .50 when factored. In 2010 Worlds, Oda fell after his 2A was well landed, supposedly due to a rut, but unfortunately for him, because it was so close to the jump, he received negative GOE on the 2A. The footwork immediately after was taken out as well because he took too long to recover and there was no space between the elements. Chan had a fall in his Step Sequence in TEB which received practically no points as a result, whereas his fluke fall at SC didn't incur direct deductions besides the -1 for the fall, but it negatively affected his 3Lz combo right after which he only salvaged partially.

    Charlie's fall should receive -1 from the total and maybe a small deduction in TR, but the effect on the rest of program may be reflected in other PCS marks which had very high "BV" so they remained high relative to other skaters'.

  6. #36
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    Dear lord, please, hand the champion to D/W already! It doesn't matter how they skate, they are the undeniable winner. They truly touch the hearts of the judges with such a superior performance. Let us all give them a standing ovation!

  7. #37
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    For the record, no deduction was given for a fall, since Charlie's stumble did not meet the requirements for a fall-his butt did not hit the ice, nor did his knees or hands. It was during a transition, so the correct deduction would be under skating skills & linking footwork in PCS. And curiously enough, this is the only time I remember seeing a team's scores higher for all 3, choreo, perf & interp, than skating skills & linking movements, so it looks like some effort was made by judges to take the deduction.

    The stumble

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulOzZgElf2k#t=1m4s

    The protocols
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SD_Scores.pdf

    As to the judges, there are judges from both USA and RUS:

    Judge No.1 Ms. Noriko SHIROTA JPN

    Judge No.2 Ms. Sharon ROGERS USA

    Judge No.3 Ms. Elena FOMINA RUS

    Judge No.4 Mr. Garry HOPPE GBR

    Judge No.5 Ms. Karen BUTCHER CAN

    Judge No.6 Mr. Jean-Bernard HAMEL FRA

    Judge No.7 Mr. Vladislav PETUKHOV UKR

    Judge No.8 Mr. Attila SOOS HUN

    Judge No.9 Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE LTU

    The protocols are arranged so you can no longer go down a column and say judge 8 was judging this or that way. The protocols are scrambled from skater to skater.

    The shock in the protocols is the low TES of B&S. All 3 Russian teams got very similar TES, and R&T got the highest of the 3:

    D&W 33.29
    W&P 32.08
    R&T 28.86
    B&S 27.65
    P&G 27.58
    T&S 26.35
    C&J 24.07

    As to base score, the case of B&S is more surprising:

    D&W 28.5
    W&P 28.5
    R&T 27.0
    P&G 26.5
    T&S 25.0
    B&S 24.0
    C&J 23.0

    And in case you wondered, here's the tech panel:

    Referee Mr. Christopher BUCHANAN ISU Great Britain

    Technical Controller Ms. Ludmila MIKHAILOVSKAYA ISU Ukraine

    Technical Specialist Mr. Andrzej DOSTATNI ISU (Poland)

    Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Tomas KIKA ISU SLO (Slovenia, I think?)
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-25-2011 at 04:16 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcoates View Post
    To be realistic, judges very likely award GOE based in part on conditions under which skaters are competing. To pull themselves together after such a freak fall whhich happened virtually right before their first element and then complete all of them relatively error free is a pretty impressive feat. The judges were likely impressed by that accomplishment as most teams would have made a hash of the rest of the program. And let's be clear. Their elements were the strongest of the event. The fall was on a non scored element.
    If you look at the protocol, D/W who usually have nothing but 2 and 3 for GOE, received only +3 from one single judge for all of their elements. Their three +3 came from one judge alone and they better hope that judge isn't American or else being so far out of the line can lead to accusation of national bias. An argument can also be made they skated below their standard that 8 of the 9 judges really weren't that impressed. They also received more 0 than they have of +3. So no, I don't think they were that overwhelmed, frankly, I wasn't either.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    For the record, no deduction was given for a fall, since Charlie's stumble did not meet the requirements for a fall-his butt did not hit the ice, nor did his knees or hands. It was during a transition, so the correct deduction would be under skating skills & linking footwork in PCS. And curiously enough, this is the only time I remember seeing a team's scores higher for all 3, choreo, perf & interp, than skating skills & linking movements, so it looks like some effort was made by judges to take the deduction.
    I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the stumble only affects SS and TR of PCS. The rules are very clear about major stumbles that affect the unison in Ice Dance and that both the PE and IN (which includes Timing in Ice Dance) should also reflect the error, depending on the severity. The fact that there was a noticeable loss of unison means that at least 4 of the 5 area in PCS should be affected. The impact on CH is a little more uncertain because it depends on how the judge evaluates the disruption to the composition of the dance and could in theory, determines that the impact was insignificant. But in areas where unison is explicitly mentioned, it is shocking to see a judge give out 10 for Interpretation/Timing when even a bird can tell the timing of that dance is not perfect, far from it.

    As for PE, CH and IN being higher than SS and TR - contrary to your belief, which is not correct, PE, CH and IN are usually higher than SS and TR. Here are the proofs:

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2011/SEG007.HTM

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2011/SEG007.HTM

    Of the 15 teams that skated their SD in the last two GP events, more than half - that is 8 teams out of 15 have higher PE, CH, and IN than either of their SS and TR marks. In Moscow, 5 of the 7 teams are scored as such, the ratio is very high. It is actually quite common to see the softer aspects of PCS being given higher marks than the more technical aspects when it comes to Ice Dance. Even in Singles, TR tends to be much lower than the other components or judges being the most strict about it. So it is impossible to conclude whether any deductions have been taken against D/W, and looking at the marks, I can't tell either but I know one judge didn't take any deductions because if he/she had, D/W would have gotten all 10s.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    If you look at the protocol, D/W who usually have nothing but 2 and 3 for GOE, received only +3 from one single judge for all of their elements. Their three +3 came from one judge alone and they better hope that judge isn't American or else being so far out of the line can lead to accusation of national bias. An argument can also be made they skated below their standard that 8 of the 9 judges really weren't that impressed. They also received more 0 than they have of +3. So no, I don't think they were that overwhelmed, frankly, I wasn't either.
    I never said overwhelmed. That's your word. I said the judges were likely impressed by their effort. That does not imply that they would have received +3s across the board. It implies that the judges might look somewhat favorably on the rest of the program, which they did. I can read a protocol sheet too. It makes sense that some of their GOE was lower than normal, and should actually refute some of the silly conspiracy or pre-judging talk some are putting forth. (BTW, if one judge was out of line, so be it. It was only a matter of margin and enthusiasm, not placement. It's certainly not the first time nor the last time a top skater will get a generous set of scores.) As Doris pointed out, they did appear to take some sort of PCS hit for skating skills and transitions. Just because it was not their usual standard, does not mean it was not good or better than their competition. Part of being a strong competitor is shaking off errors in order to produce the effort you train for every day. They still had the highest GOE of any team and they won PCS by a very healthy margin. Was it perfect? No. As ImaginaryPogue summed it up, solid but scratchy at the start.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcoates View Post
    As Doris pointed out, they did appear to take some sort of PCS hit for skating skills and transitions.
    The theory she relied on based on her recollection was incorrect as it has already been shown in post above. 5 of the 7 teams in Moscow have higher PE, CH and IN than their SS and TR. A 6th team could actually have been counted if we accept tie marks. So that makes almost the entirety of all the teams competing in Cup of Russia showing the same pattern. Therefore, it's impossible to determine whether any deductions have been taken.

    Just because it was not their usual standard, does not mean it was not good or better than their competition. Part of being a strong competitor is shaking off errors in order to produce the effort you train for every day. They still had the highest GOE of any team and they won PCS by a very healthy margin. Was it perfect? No. As ImaginaryPogue summed it up, solid but scratchy at the start.
    I am not sure how I feel about the results, it just gave an impression, rightfully or wrongfully, that there is really no need to compete, they could have won this competition by mail. I feel that Ice Dance, unlike Singles and Pairs Skating, should have more severe penalty for errors other than elements because falls are so rare. So whenever an error happens, it tends to get noticed and seems particularly glaring. Due to the dark past of Ice Dance when it almost got thrown out of the Olympics, I feel this kind of scratchy performance that still netted them comfortable lead over other good teams will not inspire more new fans to follow the sport or be regarded as trully one with real competition.

  12. #42
    Custom Title CassAgain's Avatar
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    Finally got to see the dance. I was expecting a much more dramatic event. Small stumble, very quick recovery and then business as usual.

  13. #43
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Oh, the continuing wrinkles...

    I still do think COP is an improvement over 6.0 ... but do think the gap between 1 and 2 was a bit large today. No argument with the places, just the degree of difference. W/P's PCS seemed low , especially in relation to B/S, but also in relation to D/W.

    Now, I expect D/W will win tomorrow ( avert ! any disasters ), and W/P can't really better their GP standings unless they should win (highly unlikely ). Still, the skaters deserve to have the marks truly reflect the performance , even if it doesn't affect the placement.

  14. #44
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    For those catty or curious, the icenetwork headline reads: "Davis/White Outclass Dance Field in Moscow."

  15. #45
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Rascal !

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