Pairs LP, Saturday 11/26/11, 6:45AM EST

[museksk8r]

Me 3! Their LP is gorgeous and I'm glad it's been reworded properly in Russia. I love their lift dismounts, how it adds to the choreography, it looks very smooth. When they are on, they are unbeatable
K/S's Lp is just as gorgeous and it hate to see them being pushed down as Russia nr.2. 132 for a beautiful program, with the only glitch being a bad landing on a throw when V/T got 130 for a program in which they singled their twist(major mistake) and a double footed landing on a throw, with an inferior choreography, is simply wrong. I would love to see them regaining their national title!

Tanya and Maxim were scored 130 relative to the other teams they competed against in France (Bazarova/Larionov, Duhamel/Radford, etc.). The judges were not comparing their performances and scores in France to Kavaguti/Smirnov, as they did not compete in the same event. Different event, different set of teams, different technical panel, different judges; you simply cannot compare scores across events. Once Volosozhar/Trankov and Kavaguti/Smirnov meet at the GPF, then they can be compared in scoring.

[DianaSelene]

Tanya and Maxim were scored 130 relative to the other teams they competed against in France (Bazarova/Larionov, Duhamel/Radford, etc.). The judges were not comparing their performances and scores in France to Kavaguti/Smirnov, as they did not compete in the same event. Different event, different set of teams, different technical panel, different judges; you simply cannot compare scores across events. Once Volosozhar/Trankov and Kavaguti/Smirnov meet at the GPF, then they can be compared in scoring.

Yep. For example, if V/T were at Cup of Russia, I think they would probably get a higher score than K/S's 132. Why? Well, they usually have higher PCS. Also, everyone complains that 130 is too high for them. But if they look at the protocols, when V/T do something like their twist or clean jumps/throw jumps, they get higher GOEs than K/S because they are often higher or landed very well. That is why K/S get lower scores. They have a crappy twist, a lower level death spiral, and less points for jumps. It all adds up. I like both of these teams but I do understand why V/T get higher scores.

[Mirunna]

Yep. For example, if V/T were at Cup of Russia, I think they would probably get a higher score than K/S's 132. Why? Well, they usually have higher PCS. Also, everyone complains that 130 is too high for them. But if they look at the protocols, when V/T do something like their twist or clean jumps/throw jumps, they get higher GOEs than K/S because they are often higher or landed very well. That is why K/S get lower scores. They have a crappy twist, a lower level death spiral, and less points for jumps. It all adds up. I like both of these teams but I do understand why V/T get higher scores.

Well if you look at the protocol you would imagine Tatiana's throw 3S(in Paris) was cleanly landed since it got a slight positive GOE when in fact the throw was 2footed. Not to mention an absurd +2 GOE on their single twist given by one judge. So the protocol can lead to further confusions sometimes...
Just because V/T usually have better jumps and throws, this does not mean they have to get super inflated GOE when the actual execution in a particular competition is not that great.(not to mention inflated PCS for crappy programs!) My problem with V/T is that they are such a talented couple, I love both of them and was really excited to see their further progress. But I dislike their programs, both of them are empty; if you take out the elements there are many static movements and poses and that's the choreography. 66 PCS for their LP is absurd.(I do understand the high marks in SS and maybe IN, but CH and TR over 8 is absurd). Take their LP and compare it to the S/S and K/S. It's obvious the last 2 have much more complex choreography which makes it much more harder for them to skate it cleanly. I don't even want to talk about the SP, the difference is even more obvious there. So even though I prefer V/T as skaters, as long as they keep their programs, I will root for K/S to be national champions because they have 2 beautiful, difficult programs! Go K/S!!

[DianaSelene]

Well if you look at the protocol you would imagine Tatiana's throw 3S(in Paris) was cleanly landed since it got a slight positive GOE when in fact the throw was 2footed. Not to mention an absurd +2 GOE on their single twist given by one judge. So the protocol can lead to further confusions sometimes...
Just because V/T usually have better jumps and throws, this does not mean they have to get super inflated GOE when the actual execution in a particular competition is not that great.(not to mention inflated PCS for crappy programs!) My problem with V/T is that they are such a talented couple, I love both of them and was really excited to see their further progress. But I dislike their programs, both of them are empty; if you take out the elements there are many static movements and poses and that's the choreography. 66 PCS for their LP is absurd.(I do understand the high marks in SS and maybe IN, but CH and TR over 8 is absurd). Take their LP and compare it to the S/S and K/S. It's obvious the last 2 have much more complex choreography which makes it much more harder for them to skate it cleanly. I don't even want to talk about the SP, the difference is even more obvious there. So even though I prefer V/T as skaters, as long as they keep their programs, I will root for K/S to be national champions because they have 2 beautiful, difficult programs! Go K/S!!

PCS does not always have to do with choreography. For example, performance and interpretation. Even though good choreography helps, if they performance just looked amazing, guess what kind of scores they will get- good ones. That's how I see it at least.

Now, if you take out that one judge that gave them a 2 for the twist and the positives on the double footed jump, that's minor- maybe one or two points at most. But it doesn't take away points from the amazing throw triple loop and the great triple combinations. Even if they got negatives when they deserved it, their other elements are so superior, that the points are correct.

Also, they are not the only ones who sometimes get good GOE for poorly executed elements. Look at Sui/Han for example.

[mskater93]

^^^^^^
PCS is broken down into 5 categories: skating skills, transitions, choreography, presentation and interpretation. I believe Mirunna's point is that the CH and TR marks should be lower in his/her opinion than the SS, PE, and IN marks. Unfortunately, all 5 marks are typically in one corridor for each judge.

[DianaSelene]

^^^^^^
PCS is broken down into 5 categories: skating skills, transitions, choreography, presentation and interpretation. I believe Mirunna's point is that the CH and TR marks should be lower in his/her opinion than the SS, PE, and IN marks. Unfortunately, all 5 marks are typically in one corridor for each judge.

I understand that but we cannot do anything if the judges want to give about the same scores in all 5 categories. But I guess my point is that even if their CH and TR marks were lower, their scores would not be affected that much anyway. So people are pretty much arguing that V/T's scores should be about 2-3 points lower than they get. But that is not a ridiculous 10-20 point overscore. While I think they might be a bit too high, I don't think that even if the scores were a bit lower, V/T would stop winning competitions or get worse scores than K/S. Once again, I am also a fan of K/S but I know that there are a few reasons why they get lower scores than others.

[Mirunna]

I understand that but we cannot do anything if the judges want to give about the same scores in all 5 categories. But I guess my point is that even if their CH and TR marks were lower, their scores would not be affected that much anyway. So people are pretty much arguing that V/T's scores should be about 2-3 points lower than they get. But that is not a ridiculous 10-20 point overscore. While I think they might be a bit too high, I don't think that even if the scores were a bit lower, V/T would stop winning competitions or get worse scores than K/S. Once again, I am also a fan of K/S but I know that there are a few reasons why they get lower scores than others.

2-3 points lower in Tr and Ch, plus a more reasonable GOE can lead to a 6-8 points difference, which is a lot.
Being nr.1 in your country counts. Remember 2010 europeans, when K/S skated a good LP, the only mistake being a step-out from Yuko on the side by side 3T, they got close to 140 points? And that program was inferior to their current program. But back then they were Russia nr1. They almost beat S/S at worlds 2010 with 2 falls on both throw jumps.(they got 130 for that program. Now they get 132 for a clean program). Now they are 10 points behind S/S even though both pairs skated clean(both having only one visible mistake).
So reputation does count and V/T's marks are inflated but so far all their medals they won, they did it fair and square. I'm curious to see how will the scoring be at GPF, but I am 100% sure if all three teams skate close to clean, K/S will be third by some margin. I don't know about first and second place.

[DianaSelene]

2-3 points lower in Tr and Ch, plus a more reasonable GOE can lead to a 6-8 points difference, which is a lot.
Being nr.1 in your country counts. Remember 2010 europeans, when K/S skated a good LP, the only mistake being a step-out from Yuko on the side by side 3T, they got close to 140 points? And that program was inferior to their current program. But back then they were Russia nr1. They almost beat S/S at worlds 2010 with 2 falls on both throw jumps.(they got 130 for that program. Now they get 132 for a clean program). Now they are 10 points behind S/S even though both pairs skated clean(both having only one visible mistake).
So reputation does count and V/T's marks are inflated but so far all their medals they won, they did it fair and square. I'm curious to see how will the scoring be at GPF, but I am 100% sure if all three teams skate close to clean, K/S will be third by some margin. I don't know about first and second place.

No, the GOE alone would be about 2 points for those two bad elements. That is four points in all. And actually there is no reason to argue this because we won't be able to change anything. Personally, I love V/T and am happy when they win.