Yuzuru Hanyu: 2012-13 Season

emdee · Aug 9, 2012

Yes I am a hardcore fan of PChiddy and proud of it!
I enjoy Daisuke's programs but I dont like the fact that last year as the year progressed he kept reducing complexity. Loved Daisuke in his younger years. As I loved Plushy in his younger years - still love Yags and Kurt!

Hanyu was wonderful at the worlds - no question. He skated with passion and with his whole being. Patrick whom I am big fan of, skated with reserve and I mourned that. I would have prefered if PC skated Worlds as he did Nats but that was not to be.

Regardless how I feel about PC it doesnt mean I cannot enjoy Hanyu as a wonderful young talent or the lightness of Koz's skating.

I would be sad if Hanyu skips worlds as I will be there and would enjoy seeing him skate. I saw him live last year in Quebec City GPF and he has some wonderful qualities.

Rippon lacks speed but there is a softness in his edges.

I am not familiar with Machida or Mura never having seen them live. I find the difference between seeing skaters live and on TV is enormous. Am really looking forward to worlds for this reason. A chance to enjoy the best talents. It must be so hard for Japanese fans since there is such a deep field in both men and women. In Canada our field is deep in Ice dancing.

FTnoona · Aug 9, 2012

emdee said:
I think Rippons SS are quite decent certainly better than Hanyu and Javier.
While Hanyu is a brilliant young skater he needs to improve his SS and endurance and this will take time. The short term Sochi over the long term does not make sense and the JSF likely sees it. Unfortunately the Hanyu lovers do not see it.

If Hanyu does not separate himself from the rest of the pack in Japan and its a very excellent pack as well, he will find himself left behind.

All this crying and pooh holding may endear him to his younger audience but that will not get him the OGM either at Sochi or the following Olys.

I disagree with you that Rippon's SS are better than Hanyu and Javier. His stroking seems more effortful than both these skaters. Being slow does correlate to SS to some extent b/c you use your edges to gain speed. I do agree that Hanyu should improve his SS, and that it's going to take time. SS don't suddenly improve after 3 months. I agree that it's something that you have to work on for a while. Look at Asada. I wonder what what Hanyu's asthma trigger is. It may or may not be a factor in his slow increase in endurance. I don't see how his crying and pooh holding will hold him back since he does this after and before his performance. The judges are going to score him on his performance not his pre and post performance actions or I would hope that is what they do....

giulia95 · Aug 10, 2012

Oh Emdee, you would be sad if Hanyu skips worlds !! I'm sure also P.Chan would be so sad, he would cry desperately for sure!!!

deedee1 · Aug 10, 2012

Everyone, don't forget this is Yuzuru's thread.

This thread is for Yuzuru and his fans. Should be a safe and conflict-free place for his fans. Let's talk about other skaters and/or compare Yuzu against/to other skaters in other threads if we want to, shall we?

let`s talk · Aug 10, 2012

janetfan said:
Two words for you......Patrick Chan.
......
Plush could come out and land a couple of quads and not even make the podium in today's scoring system.

Someone didn't follow the last season I see. PC was boo-ed in Nice. While Plush won his gold triumphantly.

Li'Kitsu said:
What makes this laughable - if it is even true - is that Orser suppossedly said he'd deny Hanyu the world championships. The same Orser that trains Javier - I like Javi a lot, but his SS are far from being better than Hanyus.

I agree it doesn't make any sense at all. If Orser's words are true, then he must have finally (after 3 months :biggrin:

) realized that he had screwed up his work with Hanyu. Definitely when he was assigned to work with the guy, the purpose was to reach the result not worse than the last Worlds. If theoretically speaking Hanyu podiums lower than 3rd in London, then Orser might lose him as a pupil. Which he surely doesn't want to, he'd prefer to keep him and bring to Sochi. So, now it's just safer to blame horrible SS as a reason to skip the Worlds. Haha. :popcorn:

janetfan · Aug 10, 2012

Is there any truth to this whole thing - or is it just a silly rumor?

Any words from Hanyu or Orser about it?

Go Yuzu!

emdee · Aug 10, 2012

O ye of little faith
Of course its a silly rumour.
Orser's stock will be much higher if Hanyu medals both at Olys and worlds .

Buttercup · Aug 10, 2012

Bluebonnet said:
Even if Orser didn't say anything about Hanyu's SS, I've in fact already compared his SS with the top skaters' SS before if you remember. What I've found out was his bumpy turns and glides.

Oh, I see. You've compared the skating skills of the top skaters, and whatever conclusion you reached (based on TV viewing?) is unassailable fact. Let me guess: your observations conclusively proved exactly what you wanted them to.

let`s talk said:
Someone didn't follow the last season I see. PC was boo-ed in Nice. While Plush won his gold triumphantly.

I agree it doesn't make any sense at all. If Orser's words are true, then he must have finally (after 3 months ) realized that he had screwed up his work with Hanyu. Definitely when he was assigned to work with the guy, the purpose was to reach the result not worse than the last Worlds. If theoretically speaking Hanyu podiums lower than 3rd in London, then Orser might lose him as a pupil. Which he surely doesn't want to, he'd prefer to keep him and bring to Sochi. So, now it's just safer to blame horrible SS as a reason to skip the Worlds. Haha.

You can't podium lower than third :biggrin:

well, except at US Nationals.

I never liked the Hanyu to Orser switch, I thought Yuzuru was making good progress with his coach in Japan and didn't really see anything Orser could really help him with. Mainly Yuzuru needs more experience and maturity, which will come with time, and better stamina, but I'm not sure what can be done about that considering his asthma. As for skating skills, Orser would do better to focus on Javi's, which are really not good for someone with podium aspirations.

I'm not sure what Plushenko is doing in this thread, but you can never write the guy off. Didn't anyone watch 2012 Euros? I wouldn't be surprised if Plushenko ends up competing against his own kids. Regardless of what one thinks of his style, he's an athletic marvel.

Bluebonnet · Aug 10, 2012

Buttercup said:
Oh, I see. You've compared the skating skills of the top skaters, and whatever conclusion you reached (based on TV viewing?) is unassailable fact. Let me guess: your observations conclusively proved exactly what you wanted them to.

My conclusion proved that even casual fans like me could see it and know what Hanyu was lacking (note: I didn't say that was the only thing he was lacking). This rally against Orser is getting old. Too bad that my observation was happened a year or two ago, long before any of us have heard anything from Orser about Hanyu. So I'm not surprised if Orser really said so. The "skip the Worlds" part was really weird. I give it a big question mark on the creditability of it.

Kalina · Aug 10, 2012

Orser really did say that Hanyu's jumps are good but that his skating skills need 'a lot of work': Hanyu himself said this in an interview after Dreams on Ice, back in June. He added that he was going back to the basics with Tracy Wilson who is his primary SS coach.
More information about this can be found in the book 'Cutting Edge 2012 + Plus' (it's a book about Team Japan's men). He said he was surprised while watching videos of himself skating as a child at how his skating skills were so much better than they are now, and that they got worse as the years went by and he had to focus on more and more difficult jump content in his programs. So he's trying to remember how he used to skate back then. He's practicing a lot and his muscles are always sore: since he's spending so much time on skating skills, he gets worried that the other coaches and students on the rink will wonder what he did to deserve the bronze medal at Worlds, if his skating besides jumping is not that good. Thinking about this makes him train even more.

There's no mention in the book of Orser saying that he won't make him go to Worlds if his SS don't improve (they interviewed him too) nor has Hanyu ever said something like that, so for now it's just a twitter rumour, I guess.

doctor2014 · Aug 10, 2012

Bluebonnet said:
Too bad that my observation was happened a year or two ago, long before any of us have heard anything from Orser about Hanyu. So I'm not surprised if Orser really said so.

It depends on who are you comparing Hanyu with. If you compare him with Patrick then yes Hanyu’s SS is a weakness. But if you compare him with most other skaters then Hanyu already has very good SS. Many people have seen skaters skating live, and there are real figure skating experts on GS and FSU. Most people who have seen Hanyu skating live said he has good skating skills, and these include experts, judges, and other skaters. On the other hand, so many people who have watched Javier noticed that he has very weak SS.

I’m wondering what Orser said about the SS of Javier, Rippon, Christina, Elene, etc. They are the ones who need a lot of work on their SS, but the fact is they improved little under Orser’s team and they still show weak SS now.

My conclusion proved that even casual fans like me could see it and know what Hanyu was lacking (note: I didn't say that was the only thing he was lacking). This rally against Orser is getting old.

Hanyu’s goal is to win OGM, so yes he needs to improve in his SS and other areas if he wants to beat the best skaters like Patrick. That’s what Orser should do to help his student. Unfortunately so far fans have not seen improvement in any area, so of course they have right to blame Orser. Once Orser does his job and helps Hanyu, I’m sure everyone will stop and be quiet.

Kalina said:
Orser really did say that Hanyu's jumps are good but that his skating skills need 'a lot of work': Hanyu himself said this in an interview after Dreams on Ice, back in June. He added that he was going back to the basics with Tracy Wilson who is his primary SS coach.
More information about this can be found in the book 'Cutting Edge 2012 + Plus' (it's a book about Team Japan's men).

Why did you only translate this part of Cutting Edge interview? It’s misleading if you only focus on one part and leave out the rest. Hanyu is a very modest kid, and he has always said he wants to learn from other good skaters in order to improve in many areas—skating skills, performance, and even jumps.

If you have also read Cutting Edge and Hanyu’s other interviews, then you should know that he also said he wanted to improve in jumps, and one reason for going to Orser is that he wanted to learn jumps and quads from Javier. Of course this does not mean Hanyu’s jumps is also his weakness. He said all this because he’s just very modest and he also wants to be the best in everything—SS, jumps, spins, performance, etc.

OS · Aug 10, 2012

let`s talk said:
The Yuzu fan page on livejournal http://yuzuru-hanyu.livejournal.com/124693.html with reference to twitter reported some news on Orser-Yuzu tandem. Orser is happy with Yuzu's jumps but he is completely dissastisfied with his SS. He decided to start working on Yuzu's SS from the basis and he is absolutely adamant on that. He even considers the opportunity that if the boy's SS don't improve, Yuzu will skip Worlds-2013

What the heck, he can't be serious?! Hanyu might miss out a whole season?!! :eek:

(Talk about best news for Patrick Chan, Artur, Javier et al... its a Canadian Konspiracy!!!

)

While no skater is perfect, but the goods Hanyu has got, more than compensate for his weaknesses, notably his stamina. His jumps elements are a particular strength under the current COP scoring, approaching with the right balanced program, he is very competitive. By missing out a whole season could devastate his young career/confidence that might not pay off in the end. Even when other skaters who had trouble trying to fix their skills, they have never missed out a season. You learn a lot by participating even if you might not do well. I don't understand why such drastic changes and question the risky strategy. Orser doesn't seem to place a lot of confidence in his students ability maybe says more about the ambition of the coach rather than what seems to be good for a competitive skater.

I hope it is a crazy rumour... but his young career seems to get crazier and crazier. First the firing of a great long term coach, then the weird stripper gala, then slipping all over the ice on tv broadcast, and now this? Please just don't ends up like another Javier/Rippon Clone that only skate to unoffensive European classical music doing the Tano lutz, and ends up having the same hair cut as Orser (Just like Javier/Rippon).

Kalina · Aug 11, 2012

doctor2014 said:
Why did you only translate this part of Cutting Edge interview? Its misleading if you only focus on one part and leave out the rest. Hanyu is a very modest kid, and he has always said he wants to learn from other good skaters in order to improve in many areasskating skills, performance, and even jumps.

If you have also read Cutting Edge and Hanyus other interviews, then you should know that he also said he wanted to improve in jumps, and one reason for going to Orser is that he wanted to learn jumps and quads from Javier. Of course this does not mean Hanyus jumps is also his weakness. He said all this because hes just very modest and he also wants to be the best in everythingSS, jumps, spins, performance, etc.

I only translated that because the matter of discussion right now is skating skills. I actually thought it was very good that he was focusing so much on getting them better, considering it's one of his weaknesses. I didn't mean to imply that he wasn't working on other aspects of his skating as well : )

Li'Kitsu · Aug 11, 2012

Kalina said:
I actually thought it was very good that he was focusing so much on getting them better, considering it's one of his weaknesses.

Yes, Hanyu's SS are weak in comparison to Patrick Chan, but really just in that comparison. Saying his SS are a flat out weakness is pretty

And I'm puzzled were that is coming from now - I have, like never, heard any expert or commentator stating Hanyus SS were weak after watching him. The judges definitly don't think like that either (Hanyu had the third highest PCS in the FS this last worlds) . Some people here talk as if Hanyus SS were horrible.
Of course, they should still be improved. When you aim for gold medals, that's what you have to do. But if Hanyu has bad SS, how many people existing even have good ones? I usually like Orser (I'm a big Elene-fan and very happy with how he made her improve so much again), but it's laughable he makes such a drama out of Hanyus SS and doesn't seem to look at Rippon and Fernandez. Especially Fernandez, who could improve overall tremendously with better SS - but that was already stated more than once here too.

doctor2014 said:
He said all this because he’s just very modest and he also wants to be the best in everything—SS, jumps, spins, performance, etc.

:thumbsup:
And that's the reason - even more so than his general talent or great jumps - why I'd bet he'll be a WC one day. It's his character and drive.

os168 said:
Please just don't ends up like another Javier/Rippon Clone that only skate to unoffensive European classical music doing the Tano lutz, and ends up having the same hair cut as Orser (Just like Javier/Rippon).

NOOOOOOOO!! Not the bowl cut! You can't take the bowl cut from Hanyu, it's like stealing his Pooh - no, not possible. It's like Dai with an ordinary hair cut, it exceeds my imagination :laugh:

And Orser would get stoned if that happened :laugh:

(Granted, I don't think it will happen

)

emdee · Aug 11, 2012

There is no doubt in my mind that Hanyu will be WC one day soon unless injury slows him down.

Of course the pressure to succeed is another factor that can slow a skater down too.

giulia95 · Aug 11, 2012

Please, stop writing Yuzuru’s SS are awful!!

Actually I’ve seen something really horrible and it’s related to his new artificial facial expressions. Are they supposed to be SS ?

Please, remove them from his face, because they don’t belong to him at all!

He’s too cute and spontaneous to act like that!! :laugh:

Kalina · Aug 11, 2012

Li'Kitsu said:
Yes, Hanyu's SS are weak in comparison to Patrick Chan, but really just in that comparison. Saying his SS are a flat out weakness is pretty
And I'm puzzled were that is coming from now - I have, like never, heard any expert or commentator stating Hanyus SS were weak after watching him. The judges definitly don't think like that either (Hanyu had the third highest PCS in the FS this last worlds) . Some people here talk as if Hanyus SS were horrible.
Of course, they should still be improved. When you aim for gold medals, that's what you have to do. But if Hanyu has bad SS, how many people existing even have good ones? I usually like Orser (I'm a big Elene-fan and very happy with how he made her improve so much again), but it's laughable he makes such a drama out of Hanyus SS and doesn't seem to look at Rippon and Fernandez. Especially Fernandez, who could improve overall tremendously with better SS - but that was already stated more than once here too.

Well they are one of his weaknesses, meaning that if you take Yuzuru's skating and analyze it, comparing the quality of his skating skills to that of his spins or jumps, skating skills come in last place, IMO. I actually think they're really good when compared to other skaters and that they already got better a little since he moved to Toronto.
I think Orser is speaking like that because he sees him as World champion/OGM material and as such he compares his SS to Chan's, otherwise I'm

just like you. Or maybe he's speaking like that because he thinks that Yuzuru's stamina problems are caused by his stroking being too taxing? I have no idea. But I believe the rumours on twitter about Worlds are just that, rumours -- it would be absurd.
I agree with what you said about experts, and about that I'd like to say that technical commentators on italian tv (there are two of them, but usually it's Franca Bianconi, Berton/Hotarek's coach) always remarked on his great quality of skating and deep edges, and Bianconi also said once that he uses his body in a great way during step sequences.

Li'Kitsu · Aug 11, 2012

Kalina said:
Well they are one of his weaknesses, meaning that if you take Yuzuru's skating and analyze it, comparing the quality of his skating skills to that of his spins or jumps, skating skills come in last place, IMO. I actually think they're really good when compared to other skaters and that they already got better a little since he moved to Toronto.
I think Orser is speaking like that because he sees him as World champion/OGM material and as such he compares his SS to Chan's, otherwise I'm just like you. Or maybe he's speaking like that because he thinks that Yuzuru's stamina problems are caused by his stroking being too taxing? I have no idea. But I believe the rumours on twitter about Worlds are just that, rumours -- it would be absurd.
I agree with what you said about experts, and about that I'd like to say that technical commentators on italian tv (there are two of them, but usually it's Franca Bianconi, Berton/Hotarek's coach) always remarked on his great quality of skating and deep edges, and Bianconi also said once that he uses his body in a great way during step sequences.

Thanks for your explanation about Yuzurus SS - and now I completly agree with you. It's the area where I think he can improve the most too. And it's nice to hear what the italian commentators said, I like the 'he uses his body in a great way during step sequences' part

About Orser - I wouldn't mind him talking like that if it was for the whole world champion thing and that Hanyu needs to keep it up with Chan. I'd still wish he would do the same with Javi - I'm not sure he can be a WC one day, but he could be european champion and podium at worlds if it were for better basic skating. Maybe as Hanyu learns from his quads, he can learn a little from Hanyu too =D

burntBREAD · Aug 11, 2012

Adam Rippon left Orser over a year ago for Sato/Dungjen and only got his haircut this summer. :laugh:

There's too much speculation here. We'll see soon enough whether this move seems good or not -- at least Yuzuru seems happy with how things are working out and that's the most important thing.

bestskate8 · Aug 11, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
Plushenko at 17 years of age was 4th at 2000 Worlds, FYI.

Really, though, Hanyu at 17 is still better than Plushenko was at 18. It doesn't matter that Plushenko won 2001 Worlds, it's an empty comparison. If you compare the actual performance of Plushenko at 2001 Worlds to Hanyu at 2012 Worlds, Hanyu is superior in all of the non-jump technical areas and has far more going on in the program (and he's very nearly as good in the jumps) and he's certainly just as good with the performance/interpretation (I would say better).

Plushenko these days has regressed in his jump capability and he's now a bit weaker than Hanyu in that area. His spins and field moves are definitely weaker. His footwork is equal at best. Maybe he has more "maturity", but I frankly don't think his overall presentation is significantly better at all.

you can foolish yourself as much as you want

Yuzuru Hanyu: 2012-13 Season

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