Yuzuru Hanyu: 2016-17 Season

narcissa said:

Well, that's not good. Mao's stubbornness may have helped her get where she is now, but it's also cost her a lot, and I'd hate to see Yuzu lose competitions because of things that he can so easily change...

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He can easily change to front load everything, reduce steps/transitions, do easy entry and win everything...but I don't think he would be happy with it and it would not be the Yuzuru Hanyu that he envision.

narcissa said:

Well, that's not good. Mao's stubbornness may have helped her get where she is now, but it's also cost her a lot, and I'd hate to see Yuzu lose competitions because of things that he can so easily change...

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Well, if he has to lose, then let it be. Maybe that's what he might need to endure to see the bigger picture. His loss at SC made him rework his SP and do 5 quads. His loss at worlds made him do 6. It's a sport, you win some you lose some. You may have a bad day while others are having a great one, and vice versa. He won't win everything every single time, and if that is what his fans want from him then prepare to be disappointed because ice is slippery. What he needs to do is strategize to maximize his chances in winning, which is a part of sport. But it still won't guarantee a win. To overcome a loss, re-evaluate things and prepare for the next game to win is also another mark of a champ

mcq said:

Well, if he has to lose, then let it be. Maybe that's what he might need to endure to see the bigger picture. His loss at SC made him rework his SP and do 5 quads. His loss at worlds made him do 6. It's a sport, you win some you lose some. You may have a bad day while others are having a great one, and vice versa. He won't win everything every single time, and if that is what his fans want from him then prepare to be disappointed because ice is slippery. What he needs to do is strategize to maximize his chances in winning, which is a part of sport. But it still won't guarantee a win. To overcome a loss, re-evaluate things and prepare for the next game to win is also another mark of a champ

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Thumb up!

I want him to win everytime, but if he doesn't, it's not the end of the world. Lot of fans tend to forget that he's human, and prone to mistakes, just like Nathan, Javi, Shoma, Chan, etc...
But he's a strong person that doesn't give up. And he doesn't grumble and complain when he doesn't get the gold, he looks back on what went wrong and works on being better.

You are all very right in that we should remember that all of these athletes are only human, some are just so amazing that it can be difficult to believe it I only wish PCS would actually mean something so that the winner is someone who does great skating - not just great jumps... I mean PCS is supposed also to be about tech - skating skills and transitions. I think a lot of quads per se is not bad at all, improving teach is a fun part of the sport but seeing a lot of quads with very few (if any) steps is really... underwhelming I guess? From a tech standpoint.

Sorry to be such a downer :hopelessness: I mean I still think that a clean Yuzuru will win (and deservedly so ) but looking at how 'careful' judges have been earlier I don't really get why they are so suddenly willing to give such high PCS scores (just because someone goes clean especially). Chan and Javi get a high transition score and PCS I believe cause their transitions are so emphasized (and especially Chan often performs them very well) while I don't see Chen nor Shoma is anywhere near...

Honestly a tech person should be involved in judging skating skills and transitions in my opinion, don't know how it would be done though

On a more positive note, of course Chen is getting National bias scores and it is quite amazing that Yuzuru's world record with 5 quads contra Chen's 7 is still quite far ahead - so maybe the fairness of scoring will be alright...

alia jackson said:

^^^ Maybe for Yuzu it is a matter of principle like Mao

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Yuzuru never strikes me as an unwise person who just follows a principle and leaves points on the table. Unlike Mao, he does not have a major technical issue or bad reputation with tech specialists.

It is not a matter of principle. When he insisted on doing 4S despite the fact he did not land it very well, it was also because it helped him getting more chance to get higher BV. In fact, his layout has always been point-oriented. Even his SP was designed in a smart way. He did not do 4Lo3T in the SP because his 4Lo was not stable enough. That's why he did 4S3T. And even his 4S3T in the SP has less tricky entry than 4S3T in the LP.

There must be some strategic reason why he insisted on 4-3 in the second half of his LP. Even Javi does not do 4-3 in the second half. Why does Yuzuru not front load all of his quads? Maybe he does not want to do 3F in the second half to the point it is better to do quads in the second half? And of course, the layout of the jumps should not be changed drastically or else he will mess all of them. If you look at his layout, it has been like this ever since he moved to Orser:
Quad - Quad - 3F // Combo - Solo jump/3Acombo - 3ACombo - 3Lo/3Acombo - 3lz

He is not naive to change the structure of his program drastically. I do think 4-3 in the second half is unwise, but maybe he just wants to test it out and he will switch it back if it does not work.

I just know for sure he will add 4lz, because even Orser mentioned it clearly, I just do not know when.

Meoima I think you are right when it comes to Yuzuru's pragmatic nature, he is as he himself have put it an artistic athlete (very competitive ), being able to do a quad-combo in the second half is probably a really good experience and can be used in the future. I don't think he will change anything unless he gets beaten by a front-loaded program at 4CC though but then I think maybe.

Also some nice person welcomed me earlier, and I haven't figured out completely how to quote and stuff yet but THANK YOU :agree: Glad to be here

Meoima said:

There must be some strategic reason why he insisted on 4-3 in the second half of his LP. Even Javi does not do 4-3 in the second half. Why does Yuzuru not front load all of his quads? Maybe he does not want to do 3F in the second half to the point it is better to do quads in the second half? And of course, the layout of the jumps should not be changed drastically or else he will mess all of them. If you look at his layout, it has been like this ever since he moved to Orser: Quad - Quad - 3F // Combo - Solo jump/3Acombo - 3ACombo - 3Lo/3Acombo - 3lz..

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I think this is why I have a hard time understanding his choice in doing 4S3T in the second half. I find it to be disconnected to his goals and objectives? I don't think he lose anything by doing it in the first half, aside of 0.4 points.

Every skater has their own skating ideals, philosophy, goals, objectives and what they want to achieve from their skating. Patrick said he wants to do 2 clean programs for oly and that he feels he would need to sacrifice his choreo too much if he do more than 3 quads in the LP. Thus I understand his layout choices. Javi said he just want to be on the olympic podium because his biggest regret is to miss it; he did not aim for gold, thus I also understand his layout choices. I initially did not understand why Yuzu do 4Lo at the SP too, but after Orser explained in icetalk, I understand his choice. But I just don't see what would he gain from doing this combo in the second half and how it connect with his ideals or goals when in my opinion there is more to lose?

Maybe if there is an explanation like : "I can do 4S3T in the second half in practice but I can't even do 3F in the 2nd half in practice" I would not question it so much more. I think if he explains why it is so important for him to do it in the second half, I won't lament on it too much lol, like the explanation on the 4Lo.

mcq said:

I think this is why I have a hard time understanding his choice in doing 4S3T in the second half. I find it to be disconnected to his goals and objectives? I don't think he lose anything by doing it in the first half, aside of 0.4 points.

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Yes, I question the same. Either he wants to add another new quad, or he wants to challenge himself. But it does not make sense to just challenge himself for 0.4 points. He is more practical than that. Because if he wants to challenge himself and make it harder for him, he should have maximum his scores by doing 3A3lo. :roll9:

mcq said:

Maybe if there is an explanation like : "I can do 4S3T in the second half in practice but I can't even do 3F in the 2nd half in practice" I would not question it so much more. I think if he explains why it is so important for him to do it in the second half, I won't lament on it too much lol, like the explanation on the 4Lo.

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If his plan is to do 4Lo - 4lz - 3F // 4S3T - 4T - 3A3T - 3A1lo3S - 3lz

then I can see they he insists on that 4-3 in the second half. Because 4Lo and 4lz, if he decides to do both, will be harder for him to put in combo than 4S and 4T.

Meoima said:

Yes, I question the same. Either he wants to add another new quad, or he wants to challenge himself. But it does not make sense to just challenge himself for 0.4 points. He is more practical than that. Because if he wants to challenge himself and make it harder for him, he should have maximum his scores by doing 3A3lo. :roll9:

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It looks to me that his main goal is still to win while give a good memorable performance, through a seamless skating with jumps and elements well integrated in the choreography. Which made this second half combo more of a riddle. I'm thinking that he lands it well in practice at TCC, but unable to do so at competition, whatever the reason is, much like Javi's inabilty to do a clean Malaguena SP despite doing clean runthrough in practice.

Meoima said:

If his plan is to do 4Lo - 4lz - 3F // 4S3T - 4T - 3A3T - 3A1lo3S - 3lz

Then I can see they he insists on that 4-3 in the second half. Because 4Lo and 4lz, if he decides to do both, will be harder for him to put in combo than 4S and 4T.

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Well this makes the most sense but I still don't see why must second half lol. I hope some interviewers ask this to him (or he mentioned it himself, machine-gun talk ). I know he mentioned that he realized about his problem on the 2nd half quad but he never mentioned about why it's so important for him to do it in the second half. He explained about why he wants to do steps and transition before jump; he said it is to max his GOE + he wants his skating to be seamless and his jumps to be well integrated in the choreography. So I need to know what his philosophy about this second half quad is.

I also thought Yuzuru was stubborn but I changed my opinion when he changed the white costume.

pexcornel said:

I also thought Yuzuru was stubborn but I changed my opinion when he changed the white costume.

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He is but I think this season he softens a lot. He listened to TCC team who advise him not to go to ice shows on summer. I think if it is related to bettering his skating, he is a reasonable person (thus the costume change ). He is still very insistent on his layout though.

mcq said:

Well this makes the most sense but I still don't see why must second half lol. I hope some interviewer ask this to him (or he mentioned it himself, machine-gun talk ). I know he mentioned that he realized about his 2nd half quad but he never mention about why is it so important for him to do it in the second half. He explained about why he wants to do steps and transition before jump; he said it is to max his GOE + he wants his skating to be seamless and his jumps to be well integrated in the choreography. So I need to know what his philosophy about this second half quad is.

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I'd say he might add 3T after 4Lo or 4lz in the first half (if he intends to do it in competition), then if something went wrong (the first 2 quads had shaky landings) then it's better to have emegerncy 3T after 4S or 4T. So better to train it now and get used to it in case you need it. Just my speculation though. We shall see if he will do 4Lo3T in the first half at 4CC.

mcq said:

Well, if he has to lose, then let it be. Maybe that's what he might need to endure to see the bigger picture.

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Not that simple I'm afraid. Oh not 4CC, that in itself wouldn't mean more than what you said. Re-evaluate, work on strategy, move on. But the Worlds? It could have been two seasons ago and even last season, especially with the injury being the issue. Not this season though. He's got massive pressure on his shoulders now, another loss at Worlds would make this ten time worse as next is the Olympics season and it would complicate things in many ways, both external and internal. His loss at Boston was already something, and he's come back in a very positive way but even though some of his fans are not that competitive, he is. Very much so. And externally, I don't even want to think about it.

Meoima said:

There must be some strategic reason why he insisted on 4-3 in the second half of his LP. Even Javi does not do 4-3 in the second half. Why does Yuzuru not front load all of his quads? Maybe he does not want to do 3F in the second half to the point it is better to do quads in the second half? And of course, the layout of the jumps should not be changed drastically or else he will mess all of them. If you look at his layout, it has been like this ever since he moved to Orser: Quad - Quad - 3F // Combo - Solo jump/3Acombo - 3ACombo - 3Lo/3Acombo - 3lz
He is not naive to change the structure of his program drastically. I do think 4-3 in the second half is unwise, but maybe he just wants to test it out and he will switch it back if it does not work.
I just know for sure he will add 4lz, because even Orser mentioned it clearly, I just do not know when.

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Maybe it is just that simple ultimately. I agree he's not stubbornly dumb, he's doing it for a reason but maybe it is indeed just that simple. He wants to test it out and see if it is doable and he will switch if it ends up not working. It's not a difficult switch to make, just switch the combo forward, so maybe that's why he's been trying while the stakes were still relatively balanced. You are right that disturbing his layout would be a problem considering he's used to it but with the front combo it really isn't major.

As you mentioned a few days ago, he could actually do a 4Lo-3T now, so next season we'd have 4Lo-3T, 4Lz, 3F // 4S, 4T, 3A-3T, 3A-1lo-3S, 3Lz. If that is the case maybe doing the 4Lo-3T now as a first pass is not a bad idea, as he'd be getting used to the element in this season and not next, when the 4Lz comes into play and it eliminates the combination 4S.
He'd have it ready for the SP too then as we'd probably end up with 4Lz // 4Lo-3T, 3A

He has had enough of a gap to play around. He doesn't any longer. I would expect we would see at 4CC the old layout if he's grown comfortable with it and changed (whatever, including possible other slight ones) if he decides to alter it. It would be better to skate through competitively through a new version once before Worlds so in my opinion, what we see at 4CC is what we get in Helsinki, with 95% probability. The 5% I leave in case he does lose and then who knows where his mind will go. mcq had a good suggestion with the -3Lo that would give him some of those extra points, so we'd just have to wait.

But still though. If he's clean and I think 4CC is where he should be, I think he's going to be all right.

ETA Oops while I was typing, thread moved

Yatagarasu said:

Not that simple I'm afraid. Oh not 4CC, that in itself wouldn't mean more than what you said. Re-evaluate, work on strategy, move on. But the Worlds? It could have been two seasons ago and even last season, especially with the injury being the issue. Not this season though. He's got massive pressure on his shoulders now, another loss at Worlds would make this ten time worse as next is the Olympics season and it would complicate things in many ways, both external and internal. His loss at Boston was already something, and he's come back in a very positive way but even though some of his fans are not that competitive, he is. Very much so. And externally, I don't even want to think about it.

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But that is the reality of sport, you can't guarantee a win no matter how hard you work, how well you strategize, or how much you prepare and he should know this. You can have the highest BV in the world and land them all cleanly in practice everytime, but still fall apart at competition day. All great champions have massive pressure, and all of them experience losses. This might seem harsh, but if a loss is too painful and bitter for an athlete to swallow, they should have stopped competing. Especially an athlete like Yuzu who had won everything and break so many records. A loss is a part of the game as much as a win is, and a good athlete should know how to handle both well.

mcq said:

A loss is a part of the game as much as a win is, and a good athlete should know how to handle both well.

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We'll agree to disagree because to me that's a big over-simplification of the situation.
Of course it's the reality of the sport but talking about Yuzuru specifically and another loss at Worlds, three times in a row as the biggest favorite, would truly complicate things. It's not a loss at the GPF after three times winning or even if he doesn't do well at the 4CC. Because it is not just that he has to pick himself up and settle that in his head. I think he could do that by the way but he doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's that all the outside pressures and troubles mount, in terms of his own Federation, his country, international response and judging. Would he go out and skate, sure he would. How he'd be feeling and responding to that is a whole different matter. As a fan, I'd support him through everything, as most fans would but we don't truly count.

Olympics is already difficult enough, so I'm crossing my fingers and toes we never find out the other. It's one of the reasons why I'm very much invested in this season too now because the game has changed a bit since it started and it'd make things at least in one way easier if he manages to get the weight off his back in Helsinki.

Yatagarasu said:

We'll agree to disagree because to me that's a big over-simplification of the situation.
Of course it's the reality of the sport but talking about Yuzuru specifically and another loss at Worlds, three times in a row as the biggest favorite, would truly complicate things. It's not a loss at the GPF after three times winning or even if he doesn't do well at the 4CC. Because it is not just that he has to pick himself up and settle that in his head. I think he could do that by the way but he doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's that all the outside pressures and troubles mount, in terms of his own Federation, his country, international response and judging. Would he go out and skate, sure he would. How he'd be feeling and responding to that is a whole different matter. As a fan, I'd support him through everything, as most fans would but we don't truly count.

Olympics is already difficult enough, so I'm crossing my fingers and toes we never find out the other. It's one of the reasons why I'm very much invested in this season too now because the game has changed a bit since it started and it'd make things at least in one way easier if he manages to get the weight off his back in Helsinki.

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Yes, guess we have to agree to disagree. I want him to win at worlds, pretty sure all his fans do. If he wins we all will be happy and nothing will be a problem. But I am also realistic enough to think that there is still a possibility that it may not happen. And as his fan, I hope he also prepare and think of what he would do if it happens, how he will handle it, and how he will approach the next season. I look at what happen to Gracie and I hope Yuzu take it as an example of how not to handle a consecutive loss. Then you have Asada, who have an abysmal season, and in my opinion so far she still handle it with grace. Nobody has control over how he will react to things but himself, so I wish him well for that.
Frankly, I'm happy if he keeps winning, but I don't like him just because he keeps winning things. He is a graceful loser as he is a graceful winner, and I hope whatever his result is won't change who he is as a person.

Yatagarasu said:

We'll agree to disagree because to me that's a big over-simplification of the situation.
Of course it's the reality of the sport but talking about Yuzuru specifically and another loss at Worlds, three times in a row as the biggest favorite, would truly complicate things. It's not a loss at the GPF after three times winning or even if he doesn't do well at the 4CC. Because it is not just that he has to pick himself up and settle that in his head. I think he could do that by the way but he doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's that all the outside pressures and troubles mount, in terms of his own Federation, his country, international response and judging. Would he go out and skate, sure he would. How he'd be feeling and responding to that is a whole different matter. As a fan, I'd support him through everything, as most fans would but we don't truly count.

Olympics is already difficult enough, so I'm crossing my fingers and toes we never find out the other. It's one of the reasons why I'm very much invested in this season too now because the game has changed a bit since it started and it'd make things at least in one way easier if he manages to get the weight off his back in Helsinki.

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This, very much.

Also thanks Yatagarasu, mcq, Meoima for this discussion *v* I feel like I'm learning a lot even as I'm somewhat nervous/excited about the upcoming competitions.

I dont worry about his mental status. Believe me, a man who grows up as an athlete knows the feeling of losing and it will never break him down. Not any one of them. This is their life and they are born to compete and fight and to win.

And for Hanyu who has already built his esteem with so many glories, with so many victories and with so many fans ( I believe most of us will supporting him no matter what), His confidence comes from all these things and he won't get frustrated. He has a quite optimistic personality. It is nature and wont' change anyway.

And even as a normal person, I myself used to attend some competitions (not in sports though), and won some of them. I remembered there's one I failed again and again and though everybody thought I could win it.... I am not afraid of the challenge at that time at all. On the contrary, I became more eager to compete. I don't know why, but I never felt defeated by others just thought I can do better next time.

I think Hanyu is 1000 times stronger than me, though his burden is 1000 times heavier than mine. But don't worry about him, trust him, I know he can do it. Successful ppl is successful also because they are thinking in a successful way.

mcq said:

Frankly, I'm happy if he keeps winning, but I don't like him just because he keeps winning things. He is a graceful loser as he is a graceful winner, and I hope whatever his result is won't change who he is as a person.

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I am talking about something entirely different. It's nice that you're supportive, I am sure most of his fans would be. I personally don't care if he never wins anything else in his life, I'd still cheer him on. But I don't count, I'm irrelevant in the big picture that does actually affect him and is formed by other players. You don't count either, with all your positive feelings. It's simply put, not about you. Or me. That's reality.

What does count is as I said, the Federation that has already been making noises if you recall, Japan and its norms, Japanese media, fans of skating there in general, sponsors, international response, his opponents and yes, judges. Perceptions and image are a noose around a neck, it's sometimes hard to quite grasp just how much unless you've been in a place to actually see it and they matter, very much so. He also has his own specific feelings of responsibility, duty and honor, as well as his pride too, plus you are never 'old enough' to face such immense stressors. He must have some coping mechanisms by now but it would still be harsh because it would be piling up. I am sure he'd always be graceful as I think that's something innate to him and his public face is just that, like that of Mao's, but there is no way he walks out of that situation not a changed man and there's no way it would be pretty for him. Oh he'll persevere, he's like that but I'd rather he doesn't go through it.

This is why I'd prefer we never have to go there and why I'm extra invested in cheering him on now. It's not wishing for a victory, it's wishing for just that much less stress in an already stressful situation. Anyway, it doesn't even matter as it's not like we can do anything more about it than be steadfastly supportive; hopefully this is just idle talk to pass the time.

Yatagarasu said:

This is why I'd prefer we never have to go there and why I'm extra invested in cheering him on now. It's not wishing for a victory, it's wishing for just that much less stress in an already stressful situation. Anyway, it doesn't even matter as it's not like we can do anything more about it than be steadfastly supportive; hopefully this is just idle talk to pass the time.

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We all want the same thing for him. That he's happy and well and healthy (and win lol). I just want to remind people that ice is slippery, and that if something we don't want happen, there is frankly nothing much we can do. And I think being positive and supportive is still a better thing to do (not just for him, but for us lol) than being depressed and negative over it. Like you said though, I wish he (and we lol) don't have to go through it and we can rejoice over vodka after worlds.