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Thread: Yuzuru Hanyu

  1. #9256
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayarose View Post
    ...the last time Yuzu did a Lo+x combination (3Lo+2T) was during that epic 3rd place at Junior Nationals (2007, The Firebird FS). He also did a 2A+2T+2Lo in that program.
    BTW, since I was looking at previous protocols I found something interesting. His SP layout usually doesn't change compared to his FS layout. I actually thought NDP & R&Jv2 has a similar layout except with the order of the quads but when I reviewed the scorecards the 3 jump was actually 3Lz+2T+2T. He did it at GPF, Nationals, 4CC & Worlds. Findlandia's FS layout was also different than the GP series, it has 2 3Lz combinations instead of the 2 3A combinations.
    So he has done a 2Lo at the end of combination (granted, it was 7 years ago), interesting.

    I think SP layouts change much less because they have much tighter restrictions on what solo jumps/combinations are allowed, maybe as a carryover from 6.0 when the SP used to be the "technical program". LPs aren't called the free programs for nothing (although, with Zayak rules and whatnot how free is it really lol) I think Chan helped popularize the __+1Lo+3S jump in recent years.

    EDIT: Thank you echotpe for the poll, I voted!

  2. #9257
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayarose View Post
    What I meant was his 3A+xT combination was more stable than his 3Lo+x combination. I've looked around JSF site for the old protocols and found out that the last time Yuzu did a Lo+x combination (3Lo+2T) was during that epic 3rd place at Junior Nationals (2007, Th Firebird FS). He also did a 2A+2T+2Lo in that program. In all his edge jumps, I found his loop as his weakest, 4S might be questionable for other but his 3S is more consistent than 3Lo. His team might have revised his layout because of this since his consistency with 3A combinations are his best weapon.

    BTW, since I was looking at previous protocols I found something interesting. His SP layout usually doesn't change compared to his FS layout. I actually thought NDP & R&Jv2 has a similar layout except with the order of the quads but when I reviewed the scorecards the 3 jump was actually 3Lz+2T+2T. He did it at GPF, Nationals, 4CC & Worlds. Findlandia's FS layout was also different than the GP series, it has 2 3Lz combinations instead of the 2 3A combinations. It seems to me that Team BOrser uses Senior B competitions to gauge the riskiness of the layout so I his new FS may still change layout. As BOrser said before, Yuzu never skates the same program twice, there will always be variances no matter how indistinguishable it is.
    I meant that there was no reason to try 3Lo-X in Finlandia 2013- so it must have been the mistake on the 3A that led him to do the Lo combo (i.e. I agree 3A-X is more stable)

    I can't remember what happened in 2012 Finlandia- 2 3Lz combos you say? I should go watch it...later(I still haven't watched either Finlandia SP). That's interesting though, and certainly likely that BOrser (and Yuzu) uses early competitions to strategize/work things out.
    Yuzu certainly seemed to learn a lot from the GP events. I think your right about that

    Question: why did the 3S at olys get completely discounted and not just get 0.8 for a sequence? He didn't zayak afterall... is it because the 3S counted as a separate jumping pass? therefore he had too many jumping passes? if so, why did they cut the 3S and not the 3Lz is there something in the rules about that? All the commentators noticed the stumble, though Johnny seemed to think Yuzu had saved it (probably thought he'd get some points for it)

  3. #9258
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    Quote Originally Posted by shingalas View Post
    So he has done a 2Lo at the end of combination (granted, it was 7 years ago), interesting.

    SP layouts change much less because they have much tighter restrictions on what solo jumps/combinations are allowed, I think as a carryover from 6.0 when the SPs used to be the "technical program". LPs aren't called the free programs for nothing (although, with Zayak rules and whatnot how free is it really lol) I think Chan helped popularize the __+1Lo+3S jump in recent years.
    Chan's Lz-L-3S at TEB was brilliant, as far as distance covered on Lo it was probably the best and I don't even like him. Jason's is good too (even though I don't understand his fall on it in the team comp- did he step out and then fall?)

    Yuzu's breaking the mould with the two jump passes and 3A in second half in the SP; and apparently leading the way in it: I wonder how Joshua will do with it this season.

  4. #9259
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    Quote Originally Posted by shingalas View Post
    I think SP layouts change much less because they have much tighter restrictions on what solo jumps/combinations are allowed, maybe as a carryover from 6.0 when the SP used to be the "technical program". LPs aren't called the free programs for nothing (although, with Zayak rules and whatnot how free is it really lol) I think Chan helped popularize the __+1Lo+3S jump in recent years.
    You're probably right, I mean 3A MUST be a solo jump which leaves you with the other triple and quad to attach the combination to. Maybe if Yuzu is crazy enough he could jump the 3A last not to maximize points but just to challenge himself.

    Yes he did, although when Denis Ten & Adam Rippon also tried it during that same season (2011-2012), it was underrotated.

    Quote Originally Posted by WoChair View Post
    I meant that there was no reason to try 3Lo-X in Finlandia 2013- so it must have been the mistake on the 3A that led him to do the Lo combo (i.e. I agree 3A-X is more stable)

    I can't remember what happened in 2012 Finlandia- 2 3Lz combos you say? I should go watch it...later(I still haven't watched either Finlandia SP). That's interesting though, and certainly likely that BOrser (and Yuzu) uses early competitions to strategize/work things out.
    Yuzu certainly seemed to learn a lot from the GP events. I think your right about that

    Question: why did the 3S at olys get completely discounted and not just get 0.8 for a sequence? He didn't zayak afterall... is it because the 3S counted as a separate jumping pass? therefore he had too many jumping passes? if so, why did they cut the 3S and not the 3Lz is there something in the rules about that? All the commentators noticed the stumble, though Johnny seemed to think Yuzu had saved it (probably thought he'd get some points for it)
    That is why I was just speculating that the layout for Findlandia 13 was the initial layout and they later change it for the GP like the previous year. I think ever since he Zayaked at COR in 2010 he had contingency plans if he fails a jump or combi. We may never actually know the original layout unless we could get a hand on Yuzu's handy dandy notebook with his color coded and symbol coded notes.

    In a jump considered as a sequence, the jump(s) before it become a sequence are the only one given points. That's what can I make out of the protocols so if anyone knows better feel free to correct or add info. I haven't really read the technical guidelines word for word.

    Ex. 4T+3A as a seq in the first half (4T+SEQ in protocol) = 8.24 (80% of 4T)
    Yuzu's Olympic FS: 3Lz+1Lo+SEQ= 5.72 (3Lz+1Lo x 1.1 x 80%)
    Max Aaron WC2014 FS: 3A+SEQ= 7.48 (3A x 1.1 x 80%)

  5. #9260
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoChair View Post
    Chan's Lz-L-3S at TEB was brilliant, as far as distance covered on Lo it was probably the best and I don't even like him. Jason's is good too (even though I don't understand his fall on it in the team comp- did he step out and then fall?)

    Yuzu's breaking the mould with the two jump passes and 3A in second half in the SP; and apparently leading the way in it: I wonder how Joshua will do with it this season.
    Guess which other Japanese figure skating star had a great axel-1Lo-3S combination!!

    I'm sure many coaches/skaters took notice of how Hanyu's axels were significant in his victories last season. (I guess it must help that Farris says that Hanyu's one of his favourite skaters. And they're skating at both CoC and NHK!)

  6. #9261
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    Thanks for that, it make sense. The best 3A in ladies also had the same combo as Yuzu. Daredevils!

  7. #9262
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    Quote Originally Posted by shingalas View Post
    Guess which other Japanese figure skating star had a great axel-1Lo-3S combination!!

    I'm sure many coaches/skaters took notice of how Hanyu's axels were significant in his victories last season. (I guess it must help that Farris says that Hanyu's one of his favourite skaters. And they're skating at both CoC and NHK!)
    I think everyone knows that but it is just easy to say. 3A is very hard jump for most of the skaters and then plan 2x 3A combinations in 2nd half of long program. It is not so easy to do. If it would be then everyone would be doing that : ) . Yuzuru seems to have special connection with 3A because it just looks the easiest jump for him to do




    Re: Finlandia 2013 . I am sure he was planning 3A-3T, but he had bad landing on 3A with hand down , that's why he had to put somewhere else combination

  8. #9263
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoChair View Post
    I meant that there was no reason to try 3Lo-X in Finlandia 2013- so it must have been the mistake on the 3A that led him to do the Lo combo (i.e. I agree 3A-X is more stable)

    I can't remember what happened in 2012 Finlandia- 2 3Lz combos you say? I should go watch it...later(I still haven't watched either Finlandia SP). That's interesting though, and certainly likely that BOrser (and Yuzu) uses early competitions to strategize/work things out.
    Yuzu certainly seemed to learn a lot from the GP events. I think your right about that

    Question: why did the 3S at olys get completely discounted and not just get 0.8 for a sequence? He didn't zayak afterall... is it because the 3S counted as a separate jumping pass? therefore he had too many jumping passes? if so, why did they cut the 3S and not the 3Lz is there something in the rules about that? All the commentators noticed the stumble, though Johnny seemed to think Yuzu had saved it (probably thought he'd get some points for it)
    I could find the explanation about Yuzuru's sequence in Sochi only in Japanese.

    http://mansiontokyo.blog9.fc2.com/blog-entry-2354.html

    This blogger says she could not find this in ISU's rule book, that is, in English. (I think it should be somewhere though.)

    ・ジャンプコンビネーション:着氷した足でそのまま次のジャンプを跳ぶ2連続または3連続ジャンプ、もしく は1つ目のジャンプの後にハーフループを挟んだ3連続ジャンプ。基礎点は跳んだそれぞれのジャンプの合計。 (ただし、ハーフループはシングルループの基礎点をもらえる。)

    ・ジャンプシークエンス:ジャンプのリズムを保ったままホップや表外ジャンプ(基礎点のないジャンプ)でつ ないだ連続ジャンプ。ステップやターンでつないではいけない。コンビネーションの基礎点はそれぞれのジャン プの合計なのに対し、シークエンスはそれぞれのジャンプのうち、もっとも基礎点の高いジャンプ2つの基礎点 の合計に0.8を掛けた数字が基礎点となる。

    ジャンプコンビネーションは着氷の足でそのまま次のジャンプを跳ぶか、ハーフループを挟んですぐに次のジャ ンプを跳ぶ3連続ジャンプでなければいけません。が、羽生選手はハーフループの後、すぐに3つ目のジャンプ を跳べませんでした。

    このため、この3連続ジャンプがジャンプコンビネーションと見なされませんでした。

    ジャンプコンビネーションと見なされないとジャンプシークエンス扱いになってしまうのです。

    さらに、ジャンプシークエンスには「ジャンプのリズムを保ったままホップや表外ジャンプ(基礎点のないジャ ンプ)でつないだ連続ジャンプ」という決まりがあります。

    ハーフループの後の3回転サルコウへの流れが悪かったため、「ジャンプのリズムを保った」と判断されません でした。

    ジャンプシークエンスの場合、ジャンプのリズムを保ってつなぐことができなかったそのあとのジャンプはすべ て無視されてしまいます。

    よって、このジャンプシークエンスは「3回転ルッツ+ハーフループ+3回転サルコウ」のシークエンスではな く、「3回転ルッツ+ハーフループ」の2連続のシークエンスとして扱われてしまいました。

    ジャンプコンビネーションまたはジャンプシークエンスの中で跳んだハーフループは1回転ループとして扱われ るので、基礎点は0.5点。3回転ルッツの基礎点は6.0で、3回転サルコウは4.2点です。

    It is difficult for me to translate the whole instantly. Could anyone give a try, please?

    The conclusion is, for a sequence, two jumps of the highest marks x 0.8 is the point the skater can usually get. (He could have received 3Lz+3S x 0.8 in this case.) And also, the sequence needs a certain jumping rhythm to proceed to the next jump. But, Yuzuru's sequence was without a proper rhythm in connecting to 3S, and in that case, the jump after that is omitted. So, he could get 3Lz+1Lo x 0.8.

    Protocol of Sochi LP:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf


    Protocol of GPF:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

  9. #9264
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayarose View Post
    In a jump considered as a sequence, the jump(s) before it become a sequence are the only one given points. That's what can I make out of the protocols so if anyone knows better feel free to correct or add info. I haven't really read the technical guidelines word for word.
    My understanding is that the way to calculate points for a planned sequence and for a failed-combination-became-sequence are different. For a planned sequence, they sum up the points of two highest-value jumps out of all the jumps used in the sequence, then multiply by 80%.

    Here is the corresponding sentence from the rulebook (The 2012-2013 version I found from the wikipedia entry).
    https://web.archive.org/web/20130510...-0-file,00.pdf

    Fall/step out or touch down with free foot with weight transfer after a jump plus another jump

    If a skater falls or steps out on a jump and immediately after that executes another jump, the element does not remain a jump combination and will be called as follows:

    Short Program: “First Jump + Combo”; the continuation will be ignored by the Technical Panel.

    Free Skating: “First Jump + Sequence” (or “First Jump + Second Jump + Sequence” if the definition of a sequence is still fulfilled). The same applies to a jump combination of 3 jumps.
    According to his olympic FS protocol, he got 3Lz+1Lo+Seq in the second half of the program. So the base value is (6.0 + 0.5) * 0.8 * 1.1 = 5.72

  10. #9265
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    Quote Originally Posted by seabm7 View Post

    According to his olympic FS protocol, he got 3Lz+1Lo+Seq in the second half of the program. So the base value is (6.0 + 0.5) * 0.8 * 1.1 = 5.72
    Oh, you are right. Then, his sequence in Sochi was 3Lz+1Lo+sequence in any case.

    Edit:

    I found this :

    http://static.isu.org/media/79156/20...r_icedance.pdf

    Page 18, Rule 353 Determination and publication of results
    1. Basic Principles of Calculation:

    h) In Single and Pair Skating:
    i) Jump combinations are evaluated as one unit by adding the base values of the jumps included and applying the GOE with the numerical value of the most difficult jump.
    ii) Jump sequences are evaluated as one unit by adding the base values of the two highest value jumps, multiplying the result by 0.8 and after that applying the GOE with the numerical value of the most difficult jump. The factored base value of the jump sequence will be rounded to two decimal places.

    After all, what I have got is;


    But as it is a failed combination jump, what you referred is applied, I think.

  11. #9266
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    One more: If he hadn't stumbled, he would have gotten the full credit of 3Lz+1Lo+3S as a 3-jump combination, then the base value would be (6.0+0.5+4.2) * 1.1 = 11.77. This is what he got at GPF.

  12. #9267
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    Voted, this appeared 投票ありがとうございました。

  13. #9268
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruzceleste View Post
    Voted, this appeared 投票ありがとうございました。
    Simply just "thank you for voting"

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    Quote Originally Posted by shingalas View Post
    Simply just "thank you for voting"
    Thank you, just wanted to be sure I did waht I have to do :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuzyQ View Post

    http://static.isu.org/media/79156/20...r_icedance.pdf

    Page 18, Rule 353 Determination and publication of results
    1. Basic Principles of Calculation:

    h) In Single and Pair Skating:
    i) Jump combinations are evaluated as one unit by adding the base values of the jumps included and applying the GOE with the numerical value of the most difficult jump.
    ii) Jump sequences are evaluated as one unit by adding the base values of the two highest value jumps, multiplying the result by 0.8 and after that applying the GOE with the numerical value of the most difficult jump. The factored base value of the jump sequence will be rounded to two decimal places.

    After all, what I have got is;


    But as it is a failed combination jump, what you referred is applied, I think.
    The reference mentioned in your reply is the compilation of rules determined by the ISU congress. However, a substantial part of judging rules is determined by Technical Committee, whose rules are usually published separately.

    For example, the base values for jumps are determined by Technical Committee. The reference I used in my previous reply is "Technical Panel Handbook".

    Indeed, the figure skating judging rules are not simple.

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