In honor of Kwan's Hall of Fame induction | Page 3 | Golden Skate

In honor of Kwan's Hall of Fame induction

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
skateluvr, have you always been a big fan of Ashley or did you get into her recently? I've been following her for a couple of years now and her skating has been generally enjoyable.

I have always liked her, and I think her programs this year are good and she has skated well. She is deserving. I hope she makes the world team.
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
MKFSfan meant 2005.



It wasn't plodding, but there was a certain "taking care of business" feeling to the performance. Besides the doubled Lutz she also finished behind the music.

But there was no way Sasha or anyone else was going to beat Michelle Kwan with a skate that featured a fall on a jump and a hand down on another. Not at U.S. Nationals, and not under ordinal judging. Michelle "pwned" U.S. Nationals (a new-to-me Internet word that I learned reading Golden Skate .:) )

Against Michelle at U.S. Nationals, bring your A game or settle for silver. :yes:

Here's Bolero:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDaPHeTc0I

Thank you Mathman...I made an error and did intend to say 2005...I wasn't crazy about Bolero in the grander scheme of things but re-watching now...compared to much of what we see these days...ah, I miss Michelle. Sasha's 2005 Nutcracker wasn't bad either, but IMO shouldn't have beaten Bolero as was. I can see stealing an ordinal or two but the fact Michelle got straight 1st place ordinals...well, Mathman either you must have some power or Bolero really wasn't all that bad!!! Don't forget, this was under 6.0 were mistakes were much more harshly regarded than the sum of whole program in general.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Excellent point, Bolero was not bad compared to some pretty distracting CoP skates. But the rules will change for the better. No, MK owned Nationals. But When Sasha skated in 99 was it, she was so special I felt she deserved a gold. If she had performed like her practices, Sasha would be the title of this thread. Sadly every skate was marred. Totally psychological as her technique was good. Ah, well.

What is amazing is she brought the huge love to five world titles. It seems impossible to do in this era.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
The great disappointment of Sasha's skating career is that she happened to appear during the Kwan era. If only she'd been able to hold on through 2008 or so! By that time, there were no American skaters capable of taking the world podium, and Sasha would have been the dominant skater of North America. (With the Asian skaters rising at just that moment, she wouldn't have been the world's top skater, but she would have given them a pretty stiff fight.) She was indeed extraordinary, and she had strengths in different areas from Michelle's, such as positions and flexibility. I'm a huge Kwan fan but love Sasha and am grateful to her for many splendid performances. Given the current situation, it would be easy to say that we didn't know how lucky we were back then, but I'm fairly sure a lot of us knew how lucky we were. We just thought it might last a bit longer.
 
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MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
But When Sasha skated in 99 was it, she was so special I felt she deserved a gold. If she had performed like her practices, Sasha would be the title of this thread. Sadly every skate was marred. Totally psychological as her technique was good. Ah, well.

I was expecting you to say 2000 Nationals (Sasha's debut year) as the one Nats she could've won Gold, which most of Sasha fans seem to point to. I was in attendance that year and, yes, the buzz was all about this kid with outrageous flexibility and spins. To be honest, while I thought she was exciting, entertaining and I enjoyed watching her skate, she clearly was subpar in many areas compared to Michelle. Sasha had a fall and a couple scratchy jump landings and there were other glaring weaknesses, but that is for another thread. My point is, unless she had nailed 7 triples, even with her less than spectacular skating basics, she was not ready to beat Michelle that year. In all actuality, I thought the "wuz robbed" title went to Sarah Hughes for getting bronze instead of silver, and I never was a fan of Sarah's.

That's the thing about competitions-does not matter what you do in practice, the way you compete separates the champions from the also rans. Sasha had/has immense talent, I think every one expected more top of the podium results from her.
 
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pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Excellent point, Bolero was not bad compared to some pretty distracting CoP skates. But the rules will change for the better. No, MK owned Nationals. But When Sasha skated in 99 was it, she was so special I felt she deserved a gold. If she had performed like her practices, Sasha would be the title of this thread. Sadly every skate was marred. Totally psychological as her technique was good. Ah, well.

What is amazing is she brought the huge love to five world titles. It seems impossible to do in this era.

Sasha's jump technique was in fact not particularly good. Her lutz and flip technique was awful in fact, although not as bad as Sarah Hughes who still muscled them around often. Her axel technique also wasnt very good, and probably why she even missed the double axel sometimes in competition.

The great disappointment of Sasha's skating career is that she happened to appear during the Kwan era. If only she'd been able to hold on through 2008 or so! By that time, there were no American skaters capable of taking the world podium, and Sasha would have been the dominant skater of North America. (With the Asian skaters rising at just that moment, she wouldn't have been the world's top skater, but she would have given them a pretty stiff fight.) She was indeed extraordinary, and she had strengths in different areas from Michelle's, such as positions and flexibility. I'm a huge Kwan fan but love Sasha and am grateful to her for many splendid performances. Given the current situation, it would be easy to say that we didn't know how lucky we were back then, but I'm fairly sure a lot of us knew how lucky we were. We just thought it might last a bit longer.

Michelle did not keep Sasha from winning major events. Michelle did not win any global event after 2003, and Sasha had a good chance at winning the 2004 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, and 2006 Worlds but failed at each. If the otherwise horrible Sokolova nearly won the 2003 World title from Kwan all due to her triple lutz-triple toe (due to Michelle not trying any triple-triples) then Sasha who at that point was armed with a triple lutz-triple toe and landed it to open her free skate could have won there as well. The judges were also willing to give her the title over Michelle at the 2003 Nationals, 2004 Nationals, and 2005 Nationals had she skated cleanly.

Sasha had a much better chance of winning major events from 2003-2006 than she would have from 2007-2010 where technically she would be buried, even on a good day, by the likes of Kim, Asada, and even Ando; even if in PCS she could have been competitive. That is why she retired after 2006, she knew if she failed to win big events over Arakawa, and an aging Slutskaya and Kwan, that she was never going to beat the likes of Kim and Asada in the coming years.

You get to pick 1 SP, 1 LP and one exhibition skate/pro am little comp skate since they are not her herculean efforts.

If its young Kwan, pre loss, I have my picks, but the MK I honor is at the end of her career.

It's hard to choose 1 you wanted to see in person, esp when I see two Michelles-Before Nagano/After Nagano.

I picked my skates from post Nagano, post Olympics

Most compelling SP from her mature hit list? I loved The Feeling Begins 2004 Worlds (hope I remember year)

Most amazing freeskate from the latter days of Kwan? Has to be Tosca, Nationals, 2004.

I am choosing for exhibition Dante's Prayer. I loved the mood she evoked.

There are so many, I purposely stayed away from 1996-1998 Kwan as so many choose this period of masterpiece skating programs.

How do you feel? :)I stayed up late revisiting wonderful memories, with more to return to.

My favorite Kwan program ever was her Red Violin at the 2000 Worlds by far. Such an amazing performance, it was too bad she skated before Maria and Irina, was 3rd after the short program, and Irina was reigning GP final and European Champion and Maria defending World Champion, since otherwise the performance deserved all 5.9s and 6.0s for both technical and artistic (if I were a judge I would have given her it anyway).

My favorite early years Kwan program was her amazing free skate at the 1995 Worlds.

My favorite Kwan program although never skated its very best unfortunately was her 1996-1997 season program to Taj Mahal.

My favorite exhibition piece of hers is Fields of Gold.

East of Eden is probably my favorite Short program of hers, even over Rachmanioff.

My favorite late career performance by her would be her long program at the 2004 Nationals.
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I re-watched Nationals and Worlds of 2000 Red violin. As a Kwan fan forever, I was disappointed in the program. I had cancer that year, major surgery so skating was a blip. I revise my opinions. I think even 2005 Bolero was better program, better skated and I loved the Sp , such great music, tension, good skating regardless of her placements. I think 2000 LP was her weakest program and she was lucky to win the WC.

Certainly Nationals was a gift and I would preferred Sasha, Sarah and NNN to Michelle. I need to watch her Sp from 2000 as it's a blank right now.


There is one program for the ages, Lyra skated with such joy, skill, abandon at Nationals and Nagano. Perfect, the best. I chose Tosca as I thought all MK fans would say Lyra, E o E (fill in the year) and Fog...so I chose to be different. I feel Tosca was pure mature MK and 2004 Nationals was second only to Lyra, MK in her prime, MK fighting in the end.Two Michelle's, one an artist and one a fierce competitor trying to make her third Olympics (fourth if you include the kid/alternate in Norway.) Aranjuez was the 5th championship, but Tosca was better for me in that I was amazed at her power, speed, footwork.). She had so many rivals and was so brave.

I wish she and Rudy would be skating for us at 2012 Nationals. It is time she returned to us for something significant, not just an ATS Korean production, tho those were very sweet numbers, glad she does a little. A shame she did not want to skate in Caesars II. Maybe because T:think:ara and Sarah were there?:think:

Hmmm.

I am so happy that I can watch 6 or 7 skates often and still be enthralled. How I wish I were there.

Rudy - i love you too. Heres to to great champions. One greater, tho, than most anyone else because she stayed and fought so long.

Michelle should skate to Gladiator with that totally yang energy that she embodied in later years. Love her still. Though I feel she has forgotten her fan base even though she must find grad school challenging. She surely must know what it might do for American skating for her to take a year now and skate evn though she is quite wealthy. Is it about the appearance fees? I wonder.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sorry to hear about your former illness. I hope you are now in the ranks of Peggy Fleming and Scott Hamilton as proud survivors!

skateluvr said:
...Worlds of 2000 Red violin. As a Kwan fan forever, I was disappointed in the program.

Are we looking at the same performance? This was one of the greatest of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptj_tO7tIXg

This, however, is my very favorite Red Violin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P06NFFMn7Hs

I guess you could say she was lucky to win Worlds that year, but only in the sense that she needed Slutskaya to beat Butyrskaya for second in order for Michelle to get first.

Certainly Nationals was a gift and I would preferred Sasha, Sarah and NNN to Michelle. I need to watch her Sp from 2000 as it's a blank right now.

Naomi Nari Nam finished 9th in the free skate and 8th overall. 1999 was the year that NNN gave Michelle a run for her money. I remember calling to my wife, "You gotta come see this -- some 13-year-old child is out-skating Michelle Kwan!"

The TV showed a serious-looking Michelle backstage watching Naomi's performance on the monitor. Then, when she saw that the camera was on her, she waved and smiled a big What-me-worry? smile. :)

But yeah, in 2000 Nationals both Sasha and Sarah skated great.

As for Michelle's SP at 2000 Nationals, she fell on a triple toe in a generally eh? program.Sasha was brilliant...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-loMk4Zrko

...plus, Sasha did a triple flip as her solo jump to Michele's triple toe. (However, watch the take-off edge of the triple Lutz that Dick Button was on cloud nine about. :) ) This caused Michelle to up the ante in her short program of subsequent years.
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I agree Mathman that it was a very good world's Red Violin with her seldom competed 3x3 thre, all the jumps solid, better speed. Even a better layback position which was weak for her. This was better than Nationals 2000 where i felt Sasha and Sarah were better artistically and better choreography was present. i guess this program now looks devoid of transitions and footwork. I think that she won with her jumps but look at the way she could skate at the exhibition.

There are no bad MK programs, simply some which were incredible athletically/artistically. It is fun to try to decide just the Lps , skated at whichever comp was best that year, and put 1996-2005 in order!

Yes, I was blown away by Sasha and Sarah in 2000 and liked what they offered as programs better than National's RV for MK. I lumped NNN in that year, brain lapse. Thanks for correcting it. She NNN 99 was incredible and it impressed me forever. She outskated everyone.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I remember our excitement when Nam burst onto the scene, and then the next year with Sasha. Sarah was interesting and promising but not quite as astonishing as either of the other two. What got me about Sasha was how refined and un-coltish she looked. Right from the age of fifteen she skated like a mature performer. I know she had her flaws in terms of jump technique, bladework, and concentration (or whatever it was that kept her from skating two clean programs most of the time)--all the things Michelle excelled in--but she brought something astonishing to skating, and I'm glad she stuck around so long and did so well.

Naomi was a charismatic delight, from her smile down to her pointed toes. It was a real loss to skating when she had to quit. I had great hopes for her as a pairs skater, but alas, injuries ended that part of her career as well. In the old days of double jumps, maybe her body would have lasted through a stellar career, but alas, she came along in a very demanding era. I hope she realizes that she's still remembered with affection and admiration by her fans all these years later.
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
thanks MM for link, I loved it even though I've seen it 3 times this week I wish she had gotten gold, knowing how brilliant here short career would be,

NNN, Sasha, Jenny, Sarah..who else were called the baby ballerinas?
 

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
thanks MM for link, I loved it even though I've seen it 3 times this week I wish she had gotten gold, knowing how brilliant here short career would be,

NNN, Sasha, Jenny, Sarah..who else were called the baby ballerinas?

I wouldn't call Jenny or Sarah baby ballerinas. NNN and Sasha, of course and later Caroline Zhang and Mirai Nagasu...

I feel so lucky to have grown up under the brilliance of Michelle Kwan. She is US Figure Skating. There isn't another skater who could match her, though many came close. I don't think people realized how good the US had it until she left. Since her departure, no US lady has definitively left her mark or staked her spot in this sport. Every year we flip flop between a handful of skaters, none of which have the correct combination of ability, competitive mindset,consistency and appeal. There are no total package skaters in the US; everyone is lacking something.

Alissa: breathtakingly gorgeous skater...lacks the power, consistency and toughness
Mirai: has everything she needs to be a world champ...except the drive/motivation and mental acuity
Rachael: very consistent (or used to be) and hardworking...lacks the "it" factor and star power
Ashley: lots of drive and tenacity...lacks the consistency

I wonder how much longer it will be before the US finds its next go-to skater?

No one in the sport is close to matching what Michelle accomplished and, given the age restrictions and increased demands, I don't know that we'll ever see a skater replicate that kind of success. She truly is a one-in-a-million skater...
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
We must take a moment to give mad love to Kwanatic :bow:
I feel so lucky to have grown up under the brilliance of Michelle Kwan. She is US Figure Skating. There isn't another skater who could match her, though many came close. I don't think people realized how good the US had it until she left. Since her departure, no US lady has definitively left her mark or staked her spot in this sport. Every year we flip flop between a handful of skaters, none of which have the correct combination of ability, competitive mindset,consistency and appeal. There are no total package skaters in the US; everyone is lacking something.

No one in the sport is close to matching what Michelle accomplished and, given the age restrictions and increased demands, I don't know that we'll ever see a skater replicate that kind of success. She truly is a one-in-a-million skater...
:bow:

Best. Quote. Ever.

Now, on to my favorites...

I ALWAYS loved Kwan from her first Nationals to her last Pro showcase... That young woman is dope. However, I've always been partial to the Diva Kwan than the Phenom Kwan so my choices are older:

Short Program: The Feeling Begins - she made that overdone music tolerable and for that, I am grateful.
Long Program: Red Violin at Worlds was undoubtly a masterpiece and when I'm being worshipping at the feet of Kwan as Athlete, this program is my favorite.

However...

As the hardcore uber that I am - Can one even question the brlliance that was Tosca at 2004 Nationals? Everytime I watch that (and yes, its bookmarked on You Tube - just in case I need a quick hit) all I can say is: Dude.

Exhibition has to be A Song for You at the Marshall's Cheesefest. I cried like a baby. One - that's my second favorite song of all time (donnie hathaway version) Two - The tribute was out of control and Three - watching that, you recognize her talent wasn't about the jumps or spins. It was about that awe-factor that she created on the ice... and it's so beautiful, it breaks your heart the beauty of that girl's talent. Wow...
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Leave it to a Kwan-lovefest to bring you out of hiding KW! Miss your posts! :love:
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Induction seems so overdue, but I suppose, so is a natinoals on the west coast.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Red Violin for jumps but how can anyone pick that over !) Lyra 2) SOTBS 3) Tosca. It was all about the jumps, very empty choreographically in comparison. But isn't it great to have 10 years of skating to discuss? Thanks so much for Kwan fans for making this thread so nice!
 
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