All Things American Ice Dance

She & Evan were with Jaroslava Nechaeva, Juri Chesnichenko, then for a brief spell with Shpilband. Now's she's back to Nechaeva.

According to their bio, Dean did the FD, Tom Dickson gets the blame for the SD.

Spun Silver said:

Cara, I just started working through the links, and found that the SP links in your first section (Bronze candidates) don't work. It's not just the semi-colons because I tried copying the URLs without them. Haven't had time to search for them myself yet...

Click to expand...

Oops, sorry. I guess the original site, which was working at the time, was taken down.
I've linked to another of H/D's Skate America SD. It should be working now.

dorispulaski said:

Hubbel/Donahue
There is no doubt that H&D sizzle on the ice. The chemistry is there. And they did very, very well at Skate America, nearly scoring a medal. Madison is 20, Zach is 22. They are both quite tall, which makes an imposing impression on the ice. Madison in 5'7", Zach is 6'0". The small difference in size will make lifting a challenge for them, long term-not impossible, but their timing must be much more exact than teams with a smaller height difference. The payoff is big though, because the option for imposing, lovely, long lines can't be understated.

It will be quite a fight for that 3rd place at Nationals.

Click to expand...

I believe both Madison and Zach are 20 year old. Zach will be 21 in next January and Madison in February. Also in an article at IN, it was stated that Zach was 6'2", though I agree that Zach might want to do more to strenghen his upper body as lifting is still a challenge for them.

KKonas said:

Don't think any of the 1st year senior teams are good enough (yet) to challenge for the podium. We've been spoiled by Davis/White, the Shibs and Samuelson & Bates for breaking the mold. Battle for 3rd will most likely be Chock/Bates or Hubbell/Donahue. Samuelson & Gilles just haven't had enough time together and Goldfinger for the SD does not say "Latin"
in any way.

Click to expand...

KKonas - I was not thinking about the 1st year senior teams to be medal contenders. I agree that D/W, the Shibs, and S/B were exceptions rather than rules. Rather, I wanted to bring attention to "the teams of tomorrow."

Lichtman/Copely - 2011 US Jr. chamption; 2011 WJR bronze medalists
Coaches: Shpillband, Zoueva
Charlotte Lichtman is 18 year old, and she is 5'6" tall; Dean Copely is 21 year old and 5'7" tall. They have been a pair since August 2008.

This team has the smoothest edge quality among the three freshman teams. Their advantage ends there, unfortunately. Because of the almost no height difference, this team is at a distinct disadvantage. I've noticed that Copely's bad posture makes him look shorter than Lichtman most of the time while they skate. His upper body is also stiff, and it makes it difficult to project Latin feel, part of the reasons why they have not received decent SD marks this season. Though they are similar in height, he did not look shorter the last year. It reminds me of Bobrova, whose bad posture was much more pronounced at this season.

Also being a senior team means that they have to skate faster. I think Copely's legs are shorter then Lichtman's, and he looks like that he was trying to catch up with Charlotte most of the time. Unlike Charotte, Dean also do not have balletic hands, which would limit the range of programs they could skate. They can't be doing comical numbers all the time. They may have hard decision to make at the end of this season.

As a side note, when Vanessa and Paul split up the last Spring, I thought Charotte was perfect for Paul. I did not remark my opinion at the time, for it was not a nice thing to almost incite a split up of an accomplished team. However, I foresaw the potential trouble of this team back then once they moved up to the senior circuit.

Cannuscio/McManus - 2011 US Jr. bronze medalists; 5th place at their Sr. International debut at Ondrej Nepela in early November.
Coaches: Karen Ludington, Alexandr Kirsanov, Christie Moxley, Greg Maddalone
Anastasia Cannuscio is 19 years old and is 5'2" tall; Colin McManus is 21 years old and 6' tall. They have been skating together since March 2008. As a side note, Anastasia is the younger sister of Isabella Cannuscio.

This is a pleasant team who still somewhat look juniorish. Among the three teams this team shows the best connection with each other. It is noteworthy that they earned highter FD score than more experienced older sister, Isabella Cannuscio and her partner. I see this team more promising than Cannuscio/Lorello.

Olson/Cowan - 2011 US Jr. pewter medalists; 6th at their Sr. International debut (Nebelhorn Trophy)
Coaches: Angelika Krylova, Pasquale Camerlengo, Elizabeth Punsulan-Swallow, Massimo Scali
Anastasia Olson is 19 years old and 5'5" tall; Jordan Cowan is 21 years old and 6' tall. They paired up in April 2007.
Among three freshman teams, I see this team to be most promising.

True to Camerlengo/Krylova school, they are a gourgeous couple and does "sexy" really well. She is the star of this team, and Cowan presents her well. They show the best Latin feel among three teams with the scores to back it up. I am particularly impressed with Cowan's fluid hip move. Like H/D, they also have long, beautiful lines with some innovative lifts.

It is also noteworthy that the Shibs are younger than any of the Us senior teams (17 & 20); all the more remarkable for their precocious accomplishments.

wishonastar said:

I think Nationals will be very interesting. There are new teams that each bring something to the table.



S/G are too new and I think there are some rough edges that need to be worked out, but given this coming year together, I think we will see them very strong at '13 Nationals. They have a lot of potential.

C/B have done well as a new team, and they are going on their past experiences to help them. I am not saying that is why they placed where they did, just that they have experience dealing w/the added pressures. I don't think Evan looks as good as he did, there are times when I almost see him hunched in order to fit to Madison. Their size difference (about a foot-good for pairs), can at times be distracting to me. I don't see a genuine connection yet, tho' they are trying to express it. I do see a grace about them, and softness. Nice lifts.

It is hard to compare teams from videos. Each team brings a different style. We all should be thankful that USFS has so many talented teams

Click to expand...

I have the same reaction to Chock/Bates. The height difference really kind of bugs me because I see Bates constantly having to modify his posture, but despite all that they really have good, solid basics and have a slight edge over Hubbell/Donahue.

wishonastar said:

I think Nationals will be very interesting... We all should be thankful that USFS has so many talented teams.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. :yes: I can't wait for nationals, and I count my blessings for the embarassment of riches. We have so many talented teams with diverse looks and differing strengths and weaknesses.

dorispulaski said:

At this point, both C&B and H&D seem to have come along much further than S&G, but S&G are a much more recent item. Plus Gilles had been out of competition for a year or two, I think, and was coaching? He seems quite rough, but that could improve.

Samuelson & Gilles start at a disadvantage. Not only that they started a lot later. Todd looked really out of shape at CoC to me. And he's a lot older, so it would be very easy for him to go back to coaching, having made the decision to retire once, it should be easier the second time.

Click to expand...

Man, that last statement is beyond TACKY!!!! Whoo, that ticks me off. I don't think being 25 years old (Todd's age)is much older than someone who is 22, 21, 20, 19. Not everyone peaks in their late teens/early 20's in ice-dancing. It's a no-brainer that S/G are at a disadvantage, their programs were created in September when C/B and H/D had programs in June and May.

S/G FD looked much improved at sectionals as well as H/D. Not exactly liking S/G's SD but I like their use of Shirley Bassey. Why couldn't they have chosen another Brit, like Dusty Springfield's "The Look of Love" as a Rumba section in their SD. In IFS magazine, S/G said they were trying something not so obvious Latin because they don't have the look for that style. At least, they are thinking about changing their SD costumes.

Confession: I kinda think Charlotte and Evan B. would look good together.

S/G have been together a very short time and I'm sure they can and will improve , but I can't say I think they're a good match. I can't say I think C/B are a good match, either.

C/B have the benefit of a bit more time together, and the very great benefit of very cleverly choreographed programs that not only work to mask their great height difference , but make it work for them...S/G had to madly get programs in a hurry to be able to compete this year, and I can't say I think those programs work nearly as well. But I imagine from their POV, it's better to make a start now, even at a disadvantage , than to wait until next year.

When I first saw S/B live, in 2009, I truly felt I was looking at future World Champions ( in spite of the fact that they needed better FD choreography, etc.) There was lots of chatter about them in the audience around me , and also when I evilly went outside to smoke at the break. Their potential just leaped out at you.

Much as I would like to say the same for either of these new teams , I can't . The stardust simply isn't there.

I'm sad.:disapp:

I am watching the Sectionals, killing time before the GPF.

I just watched the Eastern short dance, and Cannuscio / Lorello deserved their significant lead over Cannuscio / McManus in that part of the competition. (55.14 vs. 50.47) The rhumba of C&L was significantly better, and they got level 3 on the steps, whereas C&M received level 2. C&M had a good on ice personality, but I wasn't buying their SD. Of course, I am not crazy about the Blackeyed Peas version of Mas Que Nada, which didn't help them in their sale.

I'm now curious what happened to C&L in the FD.

KKonas said:

I have the same reaction to Chock/Bates. The height difference really kind of bugs me because I see Bates constantly having to modify his posture, but despite all that they really have good, solid basics and have a slight edge over Hubbell/Donahue.

Click to expand...

I agree at this point. C/B are more experienced overall. This is Donohue's first yr. on SR circuit (everyone knows it's a big step up from JR to SR, especially w/year off it and different partner). Hubbell has extensive international experience. But lack of experience, skills, connection can all be improved upon. The more they work, the stronger they will get.

The height difference/visual appeal is what it is. If they are really looking to going back to put more dance into ice dance (we can only hope!!!) it will actually be a big disadvantage. I remember when S/S were constantly being criticized for their height difference, until Mia grew. But I don't think Chock will be growing any more.

I think many dance partnerships are becoming more like pairs partnerships, and we have lost the dance concept through that. Since so many teams are feeling they have to do difficult tricks to be on top, they find smaller partners to make it possible. I hope the ISU turns this around, and makes dance what it is meant to be.

wishonastar said:

i agree at this point. C/b are more experienced overall. This is donohue's first yr. On sr circuit (everyone knows it's a big step up from jr to sr, especially w/year off it and different partner). Hubbell has extensive international experience. But lack of experience, skills, connection can all be improved upon. The more they work, the stronger they will get.

The height difference/visual appeal is what it is. If they are really looking to going back to put more dance into ice dance (we can only hope!!!) it will actually be a big disadvantage. I remember when s/s were constantly being criticized for their height difference, until mia grew. But i don't think chock will be growing any more.

i think many dance partnerships are becoming more like pairs partnerships, and we have lost the dance concept through that. Since so many teams are feeling they have to do difficult tricks to be on top, they find smaller partners to make it possible. I hope the isu turns this around, and makes dance what it is meant to be.

Click to expand...

ITA. :yes:

dorispulaski said:

When I get done updating the Japan thread, I'll try to write something about K/G-S.

I'd like to add some for a great, very young junior team:

http://mcnamara-carpenter.ice-dance.com/

Lorraine McNamara & Quinn Carpenter

They finished third at Eastern Sectionals and so should be at Nationals.

http://ww2.gazette.net/stories/011707/kensnew210631_32013.shtml

This story dates back to 2007, when Quinn was 10 and Lorraine was 7.
Picture of them from back then:
http://ww2.gazette.net/images/Wheaton/icew122706a_cmykb.jpg

So they are still very young.

The article also discusses the Parsons, who were 2nd at Easterns in Juniors this year.

Bonacorsi / Mager were first in Juniors at Easterns, but they are close to aging out of juniors.

Carpenter & McNamara would have finished ahead of the Parsons, if they had not both fallen at the beginning of the twizzle sequence in the FD, getting no credit for the twizzle, and 2 deductions for the fall.

Another team that I liked last year at Nationals was Jean Luc Baker and Joylyn Yang. I know there was an injury. Have they split?

Click to expand...

doris, i don't post much but i lurk in this thread, because i'm hoping to find your analysis of lynn and logan this season. i gather that their programs and packaging have not been well-received, but a more in depth analysis would be much appreciated. i am a fan

regarding yang/baker, i'm quite sure i read somewhere on the net that joylyn has retired due to her injury, and jean luc is looking for a new partner. perhaps my source was sylvia of unseen skaters :think:

ETA also when i clicked on the yang/baker website, it said something like....thanks for your support through the years, which also suggests they are no longer...

I love Lynn & Logan, and it is not beyond the bounds of probability that they will take the 3rd spot at US Nationals. I still would put them in different costumes for the FD though.

First the boring numbers:

Lynn & Logan at Ice Challenge SD
51.88 / PCS ahead of C&L, but 3 downgrades vs. their NHK performance
Rhumba, level 2 both sequences (Level 3 for both at NHK)
Level 3 on the twizzles, (Level 4 at NHK)
Level 2 on the steps
Level 4 on the lift

No video exists on youtube of Ice Challenge, but in any case, their NHK performance was better technically.
At NHK they managed level 3 on the rhumba, both sequences, and level 4 on the the twizzles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuFj_jJHK9g

They won the FD over Cannuscio & Lorello at Ice Challenge, for the overall win. This is important, because they were ahead of them at US Nationals last year. It keeps them in the hunt for that 3rd spot. It was not good that C&L beat them in the SD.

Their FD at Ice Challenge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPFijzFX0ug

86.19 to 82.14, with higher tech marks, very positive GOE on all elements
Straight line lift level 2-it's gorgeous, but it's level 2 because they didn't hold it long enough, a small mistake, but costly, for a loss of 1.2 points. It earned level 4 at NHK, for a total of 4.71. Here it only earned 3.5.

Twizzle level 4
Rotational lift level 4
Midline step level 3
Curved lift level 4
Circular step level 3
Spin Level 4

All very respectable, top level tech.


Lynn & Logan from the Gala for Ice Challenge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xIli0Xw2L4

Parker Pennington interviewed them 7 months ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2FTwxW27fs

Lynn & Logan both admired Lang & Tchernyshev, and you can really see it in their skating. Lynn, like Naomi, hits really gorgeous positions.

I really enjoyed them at US Nationals last year. They would have placed 3rd, perhaps if not for mistakes.

And that's their problem: they make small mistakes, as in the lift in the FD at Ice Challenge, and large mistakes as in falling at US Nationals. It's pretty random. An element that looks good at one outing will be not so good at the next. Although I don't have video of their SD at Ice Challenge, clearly it was not nearly as clean a technical performance as at NHK. They have the technical ability; they need consistency.

They also need more speed. And if I were them, I'd get over to Krylova and learn how to do the ladies' steps in the rhumba sequence so that they can get level 4 on both of them. That's the biggest point getter they could do right now. And it still drives opinion in ice dance to nail the CD/pattern dance.

The FD is one song, at one level, and is pretty open. You generally don't get penalized for that at US Nationals, especially since they'd have been advised to change it at Champs Camp if the US powers that be hated this dance. Since they were assigned to a GP event, they were at Champs Camp this year.

They are a complete and total contrast to the Shibutanis. Great interaction between them. Great storytelling ability, and they definitely bring the sizzle, and amazing, unique lifts.

I hope they'll skate flawlessly at US Nationals this year.

I like Lynn & Logan as well and thought they looked great at Nationals last season, but it seems this season they haven't had as much time to train and face an uphill battle to make the World Team. Wish them the best, though.

Like you, I love Lynn and Logan. I hope for the best for them, but if they, or any of the re-made teams do not make it, it's really not their fault. The US team is deep!

dorispulaski said:

I love Lynn & Logan, and it is not beyond the bounds of probability that they will take the 3rd spot at US Nationals. I still would put them in different costumes for the FD though.

First the boring numbers:

Lynn & Logan at Ice Challenge SD
51.88 / PCS ahead of C&L, but 3 downgrades vs. their NHK performance
Rhumba, level 2 both sequences (Level 3 for both at NHK)
Level 3 on the twizzles, (Level 4 at NHK)
Level 2 on the steps
Level 4 on the lift

No video exists on youtube of Ice Challenge, but in any case, their NHK performance was better technically.
At NHK they managed level 3 on the rhumba, both sequences, and level 4 on the the twizzles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuFj_jJHK9g

They won the FD over Cannuscio & Lorello at Ice Challenge, for the overall win. This is important, because they were ahead of them at US Nationals last year. It keeps them in the hunt for that 3rd spot. It was not good that C&L beat them in the SD.

Their FD at Ice Challenge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPFijzFX0ug

86.19 to 82.14, with higher tech marks, very positive GOE on all elements
Straight line lift level 2-it's gorgeous, but it's level 2 because they didn't hold it long enough, a small mistake, but costly, for a loss of 1.2 points. It earned level 4 at NHK, for a total of 4.71. Here it only earned 3.5.

Twizzle level 4
Rotational lift level 4
Midline step level 3
Curved lift level 4
Circular step level 3
Spin Level 4

All very respectable, top level tech.


Lynn & Logan from the Gala for Ice Challenge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xIli0Xw2L4

Parker Pennington interviewed them 7 months ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2FTwxW27fs

Lynn & Logan both admired Lang & Tchernyshev, and you can really see it in their skating. Lynn, like Naomi, hits really gorgeous positions.

I really enjoyed them at US Nationals last year. They would have placed 3rd, perhaps if not for mistakes.

And that's their problem: they make small mistakes, as in the lift in the FD at Ice Challenge, and large mistakes as in falling at US Nationals. It's pretty random. An element that looks good at one outing will be not so good at the next. Although I don't have video of their SD at Ice Challenge, clearly it was not nearly as clean a technical performance as at NHK. They have the technical ability; they need consistency.

They also need more speed. And if I were them, I'd get over to Krylova and learn how to do the ladies' steps in the rhumba sequence so that they can get level 4 on both of them. That's the biggest point getter they could do right now. And it still drives opinion in ice dance to nail the CD/pattern dance.

The FD is one song, at one level, and is pretty open. You generally don't get penalized for that at US Nationals, especially since they'd have been advised to change it at Champs Camp if the US powers that be hated this dance. Since they were assigned to a GP event, they were at Champs Camp this year.

They are a complete and total contrast to the Shibutanis. Great interaction between them. Great storytelling ability, and they definitely bring the sizzle, and amazing, unique lifts.

I hope they'll skate flawlessly at US Nationals this year.

Click to expand...

thank you so much, doris. your analysis is much appreciated.

one more question though--when you say learn from krylova, are you suggesting a permanent coaching change? do ice dance coaches collaborate frequently--yuri and yasa would be comfortable with angelika acting like a specialist for one component of the dance, without worrying that their students would defect? is the krylova camp too crowded to accomodate more students? yes, i know i'm going far afield here... thank you once again.

Certainly skaters do from time to time take from other coaches. Shpilband has had Judy Blumberg come in last year to help work on the Golden Waltz with his teams, so sometimes the coach arranges it for the whole school.

In singles it is particularly prevalent-think of all the kids who went to spin coaches like Lucinda Ruh for example. Or skaters who went to another coach to work on a specific jump during the summer.

Yes there is a risk to the coach. Sometimes the skater prefers the 'extra help' coach.

I suggested Krylova, because her students seem to be geting a few fours on the rhumba this season. (P&B and W&P) I don't know who at that rink is the CD expert--but at least 2 teams from the rink seem to be getting a 4 here and there. Shpilband's are not, and since Liz Coates left, his team has not been a center of excellence for CD/pattern dances. So in the Michigan area, it might be worth a try.

A person would have to get the OK from their own coach, I would think, before asking another about a lessons in an area of weakness.

It was a thought--

The other alternative would be to hire Judy Blumberg as a technical specialist to help critique what they are doing. And usually that is not a problem for the coach, other than the cost.

Again, I love their style, and wish them luck.

dorispulaski said:

Certainly skaters do from time to time take from other coaches. Shpilband has had Judy Blumberg come in last year to help work on the Golden Waltz with his teams, so sometimes the coach arranges it for the whole school.

In singles it is particularly prevalent-think of all the kids who went to spin coaches like Lucinda Ruh for example. Or skaters who went to another coach to work on a specific jump during the summer.

Yes there is a risk to the coach. Sometimes the skater prefers the 'extra help' coach.

I suggested Krylova, because her students seem to be geting a few fours on the rhumba this season. (P&B and W&P) I don't know who at that rink is the CD expert--but at least 2 teams from the rink seem to be getting a 4 here and there. Shpilband's are not, and since Liz Coates left, his team has not been a center of excellence for CD/pattern dances. So in the Michigan area, it might be worth a try.

A person would have to get the OK from their own coach, I would think, before asking another about a lessons in an area of weakness.

It was a thought--

The other alternative would be to hire Judy Blumberg as a technical specialist to help critique what they are doing. And usually that is not a problem for the coach, other than the cost.

Again, I love their style, and wish them luck.

Click to expand...

once again, thank you very much.

dorispulaski said:

Certainly skaters do from time to time take from other coaches. Shpilband has had Judy Blumberg come in last year to help work on the Golden Waltz with his teams, so sometimes the coach arranges it for the whole school.

In singles it is particularly prevalent-think of all the kids who went to spin coaches like Lucinda Ruh for example. Or skaters who went to another coach to work on a specific jump during the summer.

Yes there is a risk to the coach. Sometimes the skater prefers the 'extra help' coach.

I suggested Krylova, because her students seem to be geting a few fours on the rhumba this season. (P&B and W&P) I don't know who at that rink is the CD expert--but at least 2 teams from the rink seem to be getting a 4 here and there. Shpilband's are not, and since Liz Coates left, his team has not been a center of excellence for CD/pattern dances. So in the Michigan area, it might be worth a try.

A person would have to get the OK from their own coach, I would think, before asking another about a lessons in an area of weakness.

It was a thought--

The other alternative would be to hire Judy Blumberg as a technical specialist to help critique what they are doing. And usually that is not a problem for the coach, other than the cost.

Again, I love their style, and wish them luck.

Click to expand...

Doris, I mentioned last year after my trip to Detroit and in an interview with Natalia Annenko that she is the CD/Pattern Dance coach at DSC.

I loved Annenko & Sretensky. They had such style. She's doing a great job then.

I'm sorry I didn't remember you told me. I'm an old lady and some stuff just doesn't stick in my head any more.

dorispulaski said:

I loved Annenko & Sretensky. They had such style. She's doing a great job then.

I'm sorry I didn't remember you told me. I'm an old lady and some stuff just doesn't stick in my head any more.

Click to expand...

Doris, I don't think you're falling apart quite yet. Quite the contrary. I'm always so impressed by how you break down the ice dancing components in such detail, analyzing levels of specific elements and steps and so on. I always enjoy reading your ice dancing posts; I feel like I learn so much from them!