I hope they take a note and do accordingly when they have to do SD Latin dance again in the future.
I hope they take a note and do accordingly when they have to do SD Latin dance again in the future.
good job to all.
good luck to all in free dance.
i don't mind the score for d/w.
just wondering what v/m would have got without the fall . they had a 71. with a fall so who knows.
but d/w for me sold the program.
sorry i didn't see the first 3 dance teams.
so fun to watch the SD's!!! I love V/M's SD and love, love, love her new dress. That fall was crazy, but glad he bounced back. They really have the sizzle and wow factor. Just amazing talent.
D/W - to me - were the winners for sure, but I don't know enough to know about scoring other than that I felt a little surprised by just how big the score was; would love to hear more commentary on this. I also don't know how to read the dance protocols - where is the twizzle mark? I love all of the top teams twizzles, but do feel that Charlie tends to look like he is jumping into it - like needs a big and obvious knee bend to start, and looks a little sloppy compared to others in how he holds his free leg. So, I am amazed by D/W twizzle's, speed, control, unison...but like V/M's a little better.
I too thought he French team rocked it - really nice. The Shibs looked good and seemed happy with how they did, so good for them. This is the first time for me to see W/P SD this season; I've enjoyed their FD, so it was nice to see this. Gosh, can't wait for the FD's.
Considering V/M's fall wasnt on an element they would be well behind Davis & White even without that fall. It looks to me like the judges are getting on the Davis & White bandwagon and are going to ride it hard all the way to Sochi. If Virtue & Moir have a double digit points loss to Davis & White at Worlds I see them turning pro, which will open up 2 podium spots for the other teams, not just 1, in the coming years.
Pechalat/Bourzat deserve to be in third place. I think they deserved higher marks for interpretation, but the hip movement and the chest locks weren't as strong as the top two teams. Some of their transitions were also slightly more open and not always in dance hold. Their turns aren't as fast either. This isn't to say they were lacking, and they deserve marks in the mid to high 8s (a bit slighted on PCS there), but the judges know what they're looking at.
Has anyone given consideration to the idea (a fact really) that there is more than one way to go about interpreting latin dance? So many comments about how one dance or another didn't give off a latin feel. Perhaps it's just that those teams were going for a different spin on latin than what some posters expect or prefer. D/W are clearly going for a dance club latin vibe with lots of J. Lo style moves. V/M are going for a similar feel but with more sensual twist to it. Shibs are going for more classic ballroom latin focused on precision and technique rather than sexiness (FYI check out vids of young ballroom dancers doing latin. No sex appeal to their dances, just tons of technique). P/B are going for more of a breezy Brazilian beach vibe with their dance, more languid movements and a somewhat less in your face presentation. W/P are attempting (rather successfully) to go for full on sex appeal more in a very mainstream manner. Their dance fits well with most people's expectations of latin, more broad and less specific to any one genre of latin. B/S are going for a very traditional ice dance interpretation of latin, with lots of strong facial features from her and big sweeping movements meant to distract from a lack of true latin dancing to the rhythm and beat of the music. He is more of prop in the dance than anything. Their's is the weakest effort in that regard.
Remember that one of the reasons the Shibs got lower SD scores earlier in the season is that they were missing certain levels on the Rhumba pattern and other elements. IIRC, Doris pointed out that the points for the Rhumba are significant and a difference in level can cause a major loss or gain of points.
As to D/W's score, clearly the judges are inclined to increase everyone's scores at this event (also the ladies given Alyssa's marks). Still V/M could likely have been far closer or even in the lead had Scott not only stayed on his feet, but also been more steady in other places. There were minor balance checks in other elements and overall, both seemed really eager (perhaps too much so) to the point that there was a wildness in some places. They came out of the gate like a house on fire and possibly got out of control. Also the fall was the result of a tracking issue (their skates clicked). That can be cause for the judges to hold down their SS or other PCS because it was their own fault as opposed to hitting a rut. Plus the fall was spectacular and happened right in front of the panel.
Last edited by jcoates; 12-09-2011 at 03:34 PM.
I too was surprised with how high D/W score was. Yes, Moir fell but I still didn't think it hurt their program so much as to have given D/W so much of a lead. Obviously, there is more to it than the fall but I've always preferred V/M SP to D/W by a landslide.
I agree with Emma - I'd like to see more of a discussion on how the two were scored and why such a "wide" margin.
I was underwhelmed by the Shibs...I'm wondering if the height difference is a problem (not that he just suddenly grew!) Technically, they are good but this kind of latin dance did nothing for them. An earlier poster suggested they choose music and create a program that was more relaxed and "friends in the the carribean feel".
Soooo, imagine V/M and D/W's scores were reversed, I bet many would be accusing just because the event's held in Canada. So what now? I'd like to hear from those people who thought V/M would win because it's in Canada.
Going over the protocols - could someone explain how those rhumba sequences are evaluated? Why did V/M and B/S get a 6.00 base value for their R2Sq but everyone else got 7.00? And why are theirs listed as R2Sq3+kpYNY while the others are R2Sq4+kpYYY. What do the Y's at the end mean? Those aren't compulsory series' that have the same base value? Obviously not...
V/M lost 2.5 points in base value, + 1 for the fall which leaves, what, roughly 1.5 points difference elsewhere? That more or less makes sense.
Last edited by mmcdermott; 12-09-2011 at 03:49 PM. Reason: proofreading!
Many felt like this meeting of D/W and V/M would somehow "settle" things with regards to who is the best team but Scott's fall has but a wrench it that. Clearly, they should be marked down for a fall but it would have been interesting to see what the scores would have been had he not fallen. Would they have been as close as many expected or would one team pull ahead? Unfortunately, the fall makes it hard to really determine who is the better couple (esp. since falls are so unusual in dance and especially with these teams. I think it was a freak accident that could have happened to either). I reckon we'll have to wait for Worlds. Hopefully, both teams skate their best and we can have a true comparison of both teams at their best.
ETA: The deficit they are in is not just the result of the the fall as the above points out. Had Scott stayed upright, there still would have been a TES difference due to the lower level on the first rhumba sequence which happened before the fall. Of course, it's all speculation to discuss the lower level on the circular steps. The execution of the element could have been the result of loss of focus due to the fall. Still if their levels had been 4 for both elements and no fall was assessed their would have been very little difference, espcially if PCS had been unaffected by the fall.
Also, D/W were the only team to get all level 4s, thus the large increase in score from previous comps.
Last edited by jcoates; 12-09-2011 at 04:07 PM.
IMO what's holding the Shibs back is their program - it's not their fault that Marina and Igor seem to have only one idea for a Latin dance. I agree that they should have taken the same approach as Natalie and Fabian...
My dad asked me something that I hadn't really noticed before but now it seems to be glaringly obvious. Both V/M and D/W seem to skate very far apart for top teams when they do their footwork sections. They're better when they're in dance holds... D/W more so than V/M but there's still a gap... or is this a trick of the cameras?
I watched this ice dancing competition on TV, which was rare for me. Maybe I'm just ignorant but I think D/W's skating skills are poor. Quite rough...
There are 2 rhumba sequences, one on the judge's side of the rink and one on the other side. The side of the rink determines whether it is the R1 or the R2 rhumba sequence. The dancers can choose to do R2Sq before R1Sq. The sequences do not have to be consecutive either. (R=rhumba, Sq=sequence)
Here's Meryl & Charlie's rhumba sequences. They do them as the 2nd and 3rd elements in their program:
2 R2Sq4+kpYYY 7.00 1.00 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 8.00
3 R1Sq4+kpYYY 7.00 1.00 2 2 2 3 2 1 2 2 2 8.00
rhumba sequences have 3 key points (kp=key point)
Each key point is marked Y or N by the tech panel. Y=yes, N=no. If the team gets all Yeses, they get level 4 for the step. Level 4 has a base value of 7.
The first key point is that little dipsy doodle quick change of edge at the start of the sequence (both the man and the lady must get it right to get the Yes:
The second key point is the series of steps involving that wide stepping chocktaw, and it's for the lady's steps.
The third key point is the series of steps involving that wide stepping chocktaw, and it's for the man's steps.
The GOE's are assigned by the judge's (who also know what the steps of the rhumba are supposed to look like. So since Meryl and Charlie got level 4's it's not surprising the judges gave them nearly straight 2's for GOE. Consequently, they have 16 points for the rhumba.
Now let's look at Tessa & Scott's rhumba:
1 R2Sq3+kpYNY 1.00 6.00 0.93 2 1 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 6.93
3 R1Sq4+kpYYY 1.00 7.00 0.79 2 0 2 1 2 1 1 2 2 7.79
Tessa did not get the tricky edge in the first rhumba sequence (the second key point), so they only got level 3.
Plus they were not as strong as they might have been in the 2nd sequence, at least in 5 of the judge's eyes. Even the judge that gave them a 3 in the first sequence dropped to 2 in the second, and felt it was not as strong.
The result is that they only 14.72 for the rhumba.
And so forth.
jcoates' point about no prescribed type of Latin in skating is correct.
And I generally find it pretty funny that a bunch of Europeans & North Americans & Asians are getting irate about what "Latin" is. Even Latin ballroom differs between Europe and the US. Neither is much like the Cuban "Son" that is the beginning of the rhumba.
The ISU does not specify what Latin is, but the ISU rhumba is no way a Latin rhumba, because it doesn't have the usual rhumba beat. It was invented by Walter Gregory from the UK.
As jcoates points out, all 6 teams here have taken a very different approach to Latin. All are valid, and you are free to like whichever you like, but it shouldn't affect either the IN or CH PCS mark, IMO, other than that judges are people, and will have their idea of what is the best interpretation.
The rhumba pattern dance does have some more info:
The Rhumba, under the name "Son," originated in the slave quarters of Cuban colonial plantations. The "Son" is quite different from the Rhumba ballroom dance known in the United States and other countries. In the "Son," the couples dance separately, representing a primitive version of the battle of the sexes. Among ballroom dances the Rhumba is quite unique. The music has a seductive, primitive charm, and yet, when correctly danced, the Rhumba is as smooth and decorous as most other ballroom dances. The one distinctly different characteristic is the Rhumba motion which is essential for correct expression and interpretation.
Special attention should be given to the timing for this dance, especially to ensure that a full four-beat edge is skated on Step 13. A firm but not stiff Kilian position is necessary throughout this dance. Erect carriage, proper expression with smooth knee and body movements (not jerked) are required to properly portray the character of the Rhumba. It is important that the cross choctaws are skated as wide as possible (but not jumped) with the free foot crossed.