Senior Ice Dance SD at 2:00 EST | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Senior Ice Dance SD at 2:00 EST

blackswanphoto

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
As Doris pointed out, it's a simple matter of physics. Tessa is taller and not at small as Meryl. The height difference between her and Scott is less significant than between Meryl and Charlie. Anyone who knows the physics of lifting will tell you that it's not only easier to lift a smaller person relative to your own height and weight, but its also easier to maneuver that person into more difficult positions and to travel at greater speed while performing the lift. This is true of both ice dancers and pairs. Doris already broke out the physical reasons why it's easier for Meryl to achieve that specific split position and why Charlie can lift and maintain her in it while continuing his speed. There's a reason why many of V/M's rotational lifts involve Tessa being draped around Scott's shoulders. It physically more manageable to lift a body of more similar height in more or less of a "fireman's carry" position than in a position more apart from your own center of gravity (like the split rotational lift). Trust me I know something about lifting as a former high school wrestler. We routinely paired off against heavier practice partner in training and often had to lift them. I was frequently paired with a guy 20-30 pounds heavier than me and the most efficient means of lifting him (by light years) was in a fireman's carry over my shoulders.



Nicky has become increasingly crabby about dance recently and often his criticisms are based on his own sometimes limited aesthetic taste or on his personal experience with ice dance from several decades ago. He is very taste specific and often has trouble broadening his perspective. His comments are usually about what he wants to see as opposed to what the skaters are actually doing or intending to do.

As to the criticism of D/W's difficulty not looking as effortless as V/M, please forgive me Buttercup, but that has become an almost cliched argument among many fans based on initial impressions of the two teams from 5-6 years ago. It's been carried over, in particular by V/M fans, for years as a fallback argument whenever D/W make strides to challenge or defeat V/M. It's almost like a security blanket to justify an entrenched unwillingness to acknowledge any inprovement in movement, line, unison, dance quality, edge quality, intricacy, interaction or performance that D/W have made. It casually assumes that they have not and can never make sufficient improvements to be accepted as better than V/M under any circumstances.

It's the same flawed logic that fans employ when comparing scores across events or between skaters. The assumption is that there is a particular standard or score that a skater or team should fall within based either on previous season's or personal bests or on personal opinion or perception by the viewer. That assumes that any score outside that expected range must be anomalous. It ignores the existence of facts that are based on what the skaters actually do on the ice which might counteract that logic and force a reassessment of accepted assumptions. The super quick movement in an out of all elements and the increased connecting steps between them by D/W which are all done at tremendous speed would massively trip up most teams other than V/M. That is what they make look easy. The speed. Plus many styles of latin dance are not meant to look as restrained as other ballroom forms, especially if ballroom latin is not what you are going for. The abandon and looseness they show is spot on for latin night club dancing. Classic ballet body lines and pointed toes are unnecessary for this dance and would actually detract from it.

Lastly, as Doris and I have pointed out, the Shibs dance is entirely appropriate and correct ballroom latin in its style. Ballroom latin is meant to have a restrained character to it. Clearly less earthiness and soul and more focused on precision and technique. Their scores were not lucky, but based largely on improved levels from previous competitions. D/W's club style is conversely not intended to have such a rigid structure to it. It goes full on for the earthy Carribean/night club dance style prevalent in latin dancing done in large cities like NYC and Miami. There is an uptempo raunchiness to it that is entirely intentional, including the saucier positions they incorporate. V/M's more sensual take on the same style of latin dance, softens their choreographic impression (which frankly is usually the approach they take for most dances). So I feel that many fans confuse the intentional incorporation of sensuality by V/M for smoothness that hides their difficulty while also expecting the same from D/W despite them having a different set of goals for their own dance.

This probably the best, smartest post I ever saw on here. MAYBE now people will start to understand a little better. Im saving this post. Great job!
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
As to the criticism of D/W's difficulty not looking as effortless as V/M, please forgive me Buttercup, but that has become an almost cliched argument among many fans based on initial impressions of the two teams from 5-6 years ago. It's been carried over, in particular by V/M fans, for years as a fallback argument whenever D/W make strides to challenge or defeat V/M. It's almost like a security blanket to justify an entrenched unwillingness to acknowledge any inprovement in movement, line, unison, dance quality, edge quality, intricacy, interaction or performance that D/W have made. It casually assumes that they have not and can never make sufficient improvements to be accepted as better than V/M under any circumstances.
An argument made by many is not necessarily a cliche. Is it so hard to fathom that some people truly perceive D/W's skating as less attractive and appealing than other teams', or believe that V/M are the more polished ice dancers? By the same token, one could argue that arguments in favor of D/W or arguments about other skaters are also trite and cliched. But this doesn't always mean they are wrong. You may see compelling evidence why I should change my views, but I don't perceive what I'm seeing on the ice the same way you do.

My initial impression of D/W is now almost four years old; it was of two people skating very fast but not really showing anything particularly appealing as dancers (ES didn't like them then, either; I'm guessing it was Chris and Simon). This has not changed over the years; they still skate very fast, and something about their skating still looks unfinished and unrefined to me. My first impression of V/M, by the way, was that Dark Eyes did not suit Tessa's style. I am a fan of neither team, but I can appreciate V/M's skating and some of their programs (not this year's FD, however). I find that I cannot do the same with D/W; their skating is just not attractive and not appealing to me in any way. I believe that we are all entitled to our opinions of skaters, whether positive or negative, even if to others they seem off the mark? Doris can explain why they are marked so highly, and I appreciate what she's doing, but I don't necessarily agree with her assessment on certain points - and in addition, I feel the current judging over-values certain things and undervalues others.

And yes, I realize the judges love D/W. I don't agree with every call skating judges make, either, and I don't think anyone on this forum can say that they do. I don't recall widespread agreement with DomShabs' marks in their final seasons, for instance.

To be honest, I'm probably done with ice dance for the foreseeable future. I don't enjoy it much these days, and not just because there's a dominant team I dislike. There's just not enough that I find appealing, and too many of the teams I did admire are no longer competing, with few of the newer teams holding my interest. I'd rather watch ladies and pairs (much as I disapprove of the direction V/T are going in choreographically).
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
As Doris pointed out, it's a simple matter of physics. Tessa is taller and not at small as Meryl. The height difference between her and Scott is less significant than between Meryl and Charlie. Anyone who knows the physics of lifting will tell you that it's not only easier to lift a smaller person relative to your own height and weight, but its also easier to maneuver that person into more difficult positions and to travel at greater speed while performing the lift. This is true of both ice dancers and pairs. Doris already broke out the physical reasons why it's easier for Meryl to achieve that specific split position and why Charlie can lift and maintain her in it while continuing his speed. There's a reason why many of V/M's rotational lifts involve Tessa being draped around Scott's shoulders. It physically more manageable to lift a body of more similar height in more or less of a "fireman's carry" position than in a position more apart from your own center of gravity (like the split rotational lift). Trust me I know something about lifting as a former high school wrestler. We routinely paired off against heavier practice partner in training and often had to lift them. I was frequently paired with a guy 20-30 pounds heavier than me and the most efficient means of lifting him (by light years) was in a fireman's carry over my shoulders.



Nicky has become increasingly crabby about dance recently and often his criticisms are based on his own sometimes limited aesthetic taste or on his personal experience with ice dance from several decades ago. He is very taste specific and often has trouble broadening his perspective. His comments are usually about what he wants to see as opposed to what the skaters are actually doing or intending to do.

As to the criticism of D/W's difficulty not looking as effortless as V/M, please forgive me Buttercup, but that has become an almost cliched argument among many fans based on initial impressions of the two teams from 5-6 years ago. It's been carried over, in particular by V/M fans, for years as a fallback argument whenever D/W make strides to challenge or defeat V/M. It's almost like a security blanket to justify an entrenched unwillingness to acknowledge any inprovement in movement, line, unison, dance quality, edge quality, intricacy, interaction or performance that D/W have made. It casually assumes that they have not and can never make sufficient improvements to be accepted as better than V/M under any circumstances.

It's the same flawed logic that fans employ when comparing scores across events or between skaters. The assumption is that there is a particular standard or score that a skater or team should fall within based either on previous season's or personal bests or on personal opinion or perception by the viewer. That assumes that any score outside that expected range must be anomalous. It ignores the existence of facts that are based on what the skaters actually do on the ice which might counteract that logic and force a reassessment of accepted assumptions. The super quick movement in an out of all elements and the increased connecting steps between them by D/W which are all done at tremendous speed would massively trip up most teams other than V/M. That is what they make look easy. The speed. Plus many styles of latin dance are not meant to look as restrained as other ballroom forms, especially if ballroom latin is not what you are going for. The abandon and looseness they show is spot on for latin night club dancing. Classic ballet body lines and pointed toes are unnecessary for this dance and would actually detract from it.

Lastly, as Doris and I have pointed out, the Shibs dance is entirely appropriate and correct ballroom latin in its style. Ballroom latin is meant to have a restrained character to it. Clearly less earthiness and soul and more focused on precision and technique. Their scores were not lucky, but based largely on improved levels from previous competitions. D/W's club style is conversely not intended to have such a rigid structure to it. It goes full on for the earthy Carribean/night club dance style prevalent in latin dancing done in large cities like NYC and Miami. There is an uptempo raunchiness to it that is entirely intentional, including the saucier positions they incorporate. V/M's more sensual take on the same style of latin dance, softens their choreographic impression (which frankly is usually the approach they take for most dances). So I feel that many fans confuse the intentional incorporation of sensuality by V/M for smoothness that hides their difficulty while also expecting the same from D/W despite them having a different set of goals for their own dance.

Nice post.

I was quite bothered that people felt that the Shibs had some sort of luck with their scores. Their base value was 4.5 points higher than in NHK. They scored about 6 points higher here than at NHK -- so most of it was on levels alone. In fact, I would argue that some of the judges agreed with the criticism -- their PCS scores were the lowest out of the entire group. I think one could argue that W/P should have gotten higher PCS rather than that the Shibs should have had lower PCS.

I agree with Colleen why you have to dislike one team if you like the other. I also don't know why, as jcoates highlighted here why one assumes that D/W doesn't have any chance of beating V/M on a consistent basis. In fact in the free dance at Worlds, D/W HAS beaten V/M on a consistent basis (since 2009 when they were off the podium by .04). I also am bothered that people act that D/W haven't made any strides in their own development as a team to get those higher scores, but that the judges are just "giving them the scores." I can see the argument of perhaps the magnitude of the lead --maybe a different set of judges would only score them with a 2 or 3 point lead, but in the end I think the placements are about right.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
I realize there is tension in this thread between or among some posters, but I really find it informative - so thanks for the discussion.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Alex is the one who is starting to wow me! He's got this growing dash and subtle attitude in his expression that draws my attention- he's got a look in his eye that's starting to come across- he's learning to perform for the audience a la Scott Moir- plus a little something that's all his own.

I think EVERY male ice dancer should work with Igor for a season or two... they're the best! (and I'm not just basing that on the newest crop...)
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Buttercup, it's not hard to fathom that fans would prefer one team or another over D/W. I have never advocated otherwise. In fact I do like V/M. However it is somewhat exasperating to know that V/M fans in particular, but also fans of other teams, routinely make largely predictable arguments based on longstanding biases rather than on the actual performance on the day. That sort of thinking assumes that there is some consistent level of quality that V/M possess that is so significantly higher than D/W that it's almost not worth comparing them or even holding a competition in the first place. Which is ironic given how often fans complain about judges pre-judging events based on common wisdom while they are actually guilty of doing the very same thing with regard to their favorites. It's one thing to like or prefer particular skater or team, but to dismiss their competition out of hand consistently or to refuse to look at what they are doing with fresh eyes is rather unfair IMO. Lord knows, I have had to acknowledge occasions when D/W have been inferior to other teams. It is frustrating and at times confusing. I get that. The 2007-2008 season was painful b/c D/W were in a dog fight with P/B and F/S most of the season. But, I understood that at the time both teams were better compulsory dancers and had slightly better constructed ODs than D/W.

As to the ES guys, they actually liked D/W (while surprised somewhat) in the Rhumba CD and the Tango OD. They were impressed with how strong they were in their debut event. Their criticism really crept up during the following season. They disliked their Argentine Tango CD b/c the patter was not as big and there were timing issues. They also preferred P/B's OD to theirs and thought D/W's Rigby FD was too open. The next year, their criticism was more about sloppy errors in the OD and loss of speed at the end of the paso. They were very enthusiastic about the S&D FD, particularly at Worlds. During the Olympic season, they went back and forth between D/W and V/M over both their OD and FD. So to say they did not like them is a stretch. In fact they tend to be very big fans of Charlie in particular, they just don't always prefer the choreography of some of their programs.

As to feeling D/W are unappealing to you as dancers, that's fine. But to extend that feeling so far as to dismiss or ignore what they actually do when competing is unfair IMO. Like them or not, if they do something well as called for under the rules of competition, they should be recognized for it.

You are correct that everyone is entitled to their opinion, good or bad, but when those opinions are expressed in a public forum intended to involved mutual conversation, one should expect to have to defend one's position from time to time, especially if facts contradict it. Also, you don't have to agree with the judges and their marks to understand why they gave them. And yes, COP does undervalue some things, but so did 6.0 particularly when it looked past the inequality of dance partners.

If you are done with dance, all I can say is I'm sorry to hear that. I can only hope you will reconsider your feeling on that score.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
No, that's not what I think, although there are posters on this thread who think D&W are the best ever, and there are other posters here who think V&M are the best ever.

Both are misinformed: Torvill & Dean were the best ever :biggrin: closely followed by Pakhomova & Gorshkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Usova & Zhulin. There are those who claim Grishuk and Platov are on that list as well.

Both teams could join that list though; they are both that good. Liking one does not keep a person from like the other.

Buttercup, I hope you will stick with dance. I suffered through the Bestemianova & Bukin era while loving Klimova & Ponomarenko, and suffered through the Grishuk & Platov era while loving Usova & Zhulin, Rahkamo & Kokko, and a number of other teams more than them.. Nothing was as difficult as the Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

Defiitely the effort was worth it.
 
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jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Actually Eurosport liked them a lot at first sight (CD in 2007 at Worlds):

http://www.youtube.com/user/merylandcharlie?blend=23&ob=5#p/search/5/S6V6u8-wXFk

Nicky has not been a fan the last couple years, though.

In fairness, Nicky tends not to be a fan of whomever is the dominant dance team at the moment. He starts questioning and second-guessing their decisions and choices almost as soon as they start getting consistently high scores (regardless of the team in question). He tends to gravitate to the next up and coming team behind them. He seems very keen on P/B and W/P at the moment.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
No, that's not what I think, although there are posters on this thread who think D&W are the best ever, and there are other posters here who think V&M are the best ever.

Both are misinformed: Torvill & Dean were the best ever :biggrin: closely followed by Pakhomova & Gorshkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Usova & Zhulin. There are those who claim Grishuk and Platov are on that list as well.

Both teams could join that list though; they are both that good. Liking one does not keep a person from like the other.

Buttercup, I hope you will stick with dance. I suffered through the Bestemianova & Bukin era while loving Klimova & Ponomarenko, and suffered through the Grishuk & Platov era while loving Usova & Zhulin, Rahkamo & Kokko, and a number of other teams more than them.. Nothing was as difficult as the Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

Defiitely the effort was worth it.

:yay::party::clap:

As a fan with very little knowledge and not personal connection to the teams, I feel it is simply a honor to get to have such great teams compete AND to watch it (nearly live) and then rewatch through all the great analysis offered here. It's really hard for me to take seriously the "haters" of either team, so easy for me to glide past the tension and just enjoy the skating and commentary!
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
No, that's not what I think, although there are posters on this thread who think D&W are the best ever, and there are other posters here who think V&M are the best ever.

Both are misinformed: Torvill & Dean were the best ever :biggrin: closely followed by Pakhomova & Gorshkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Usova & Zhulin. There are those who claim Grishuk and Platov are on that list as well.

Both teams could join that list though; they are both that good. Liking one does not keep a person from like the other.

Buttercup, I hope you will stick with dance. I suffered through the Bestemianova & Bukin era while loving Klimova & Ponomarenko, and suffered through the Grishuk & Platov era while loving Usova & Zhulin, Rahkamo & Kokko, and a number of other teams more than them.. Nothing was as difficult as the Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

Defiitely the effort was worth it.

Agreed on all counts, Doris! I certainly concur that D/W and V/M will end up on the best-ever list, if they haven't already made it. As with the arguments over YuNa vs. Mao, my take is that we're darned lucky to be here for an era in which two such memorable teams are skating at the peak of their abilities, and I reserve my right to love both of them.

The Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era...gotta love it!
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

Defiitely the effort was worth it.

at least in their case there was a dramatic comedy (or comedic drama) whenever they skated... especially if he dropped her or fell or, you know, did anything other than just stand their and look yummy.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Buttercup, it's not hard to fathom that fans would prefer one team or another over D/W. I have never advocated otherwise. In fact I do like V/M. However it is somewhat exasperating to know that V/M fans in particular, but also fans of other teams, routinely make largely predictable arguments based on longstanding biases rather than on the actual performance on the day. That sort of thinking assumes that there is some consistent level of quality that V/M possess that is so significantly higher than D/W that it's almost not worth comparing them or even holding a competition in the first place. Which is ironic given how often fans complain about judges pre-judging events based on common wisdom while they are actually guilty of doing the very same thing with regard to their favorites. It's one thing to like or prefer particular skater or team, but to dismiss their competition out of hand consistently or to refuse to look at what they are doing with fresh eyes is rather unfair IMO. Lord knows, I have had to acknowledge occasions when D/W have been inferior to other teams. It is frustrating and at times confusing. I get that. The 2007-2008 season was painful b/c D/W were in a dog fight with P/B and F/S most of the season. But, I understood that at the time both teams were better compulsory dancers and had slightly better constructed ODs than D/W.

I really appreciate this post! You've detailed very well the extremist position of many V/M fans--simply, that V/M are just so inherently better than any other ice dance team ever possibly could be, that, as you say, "it's almost not worth . . . even holding a competition in the first place." V/M certainly are an outstanding team, probably one of the best ever, and I'm becoming more of a fan of them this season than ever before. However, to suggest they should win every competition simply because they've shown up denies the fact that this is indeed a sport, and as such, anything can happen on any specific day. Including V/M falling and rightfully being scored behind D/W due to actual technical errors.

This thread has been so informative that I probably can't add much to it . . . However, just a couple of my own impressions.

I personally think D/W's short dance is very good and improving with each competition. To me, they have a raw energy and excitement to their dance that's quite unique. I especially like the second half of the program to the J.Lo song, it's just very explosive. And I'm impressed by the super difficulty they achieve in the dance, as outlined in Doris's posts.

I also really like V/M's short dance. In fact, this SD and last year's FD (to the same music) are my favorite programs from them ever. I thought they had the best hip action of the top teams. To me, their interpretation of this dance is very confident, and very "big", if you will. They really fill out the space so impressively when they're on the ice. However, I did notice that the second rhumba sequence was not skated with the same deep knees that I'd seen from them at TEB, so even I could see some of the difference in technical quality as detailed by Doris.

I was not hugely impressed with P/B. I love the concept, choreography, and music of this Brazilian SD--so different and fun (plus the costumes are exquisite). But to me, their actual execution of the dance hasn't lived up to its potential. As Tanith pointed out on Universal Sports, there are just a lot of little moments when their lines or positions or transitions aren't quite up to par; a lot of moments when I find myself thinking, "That could have been done better" or "They looked slightly off there." I don't agree with some posters who seem to feel P/B should be much closer to the top 2 teams than they are. If anything, I think they were closer last year, and feel their marks this year have been a bit generous. Still, I do really like this dance, and hope they can perform it better at Europeans and Worlds.

I thought Weaver/Poje looked pretty good. However I'm not a big fan of their SD. It seems sort of typical; not terribly inventive. The music is quite familiar, and they don't really do anything different with it. (Certainly I found Daisuke's interpretation last year much more fun and exciting.) Overall the program felt a little long to me. Also the costumes/makeup are tawdry and over the top.

I agree with jcoates and Doris that the Shibs have opted for a very classic Latin ballroom feel to their dance. That was my thought exactly as I watched it. And although it's perfectly fine conceptually, I have to agree with other posters that it's not terribly exciting. However, in terms of execution, I thought they looked really sharp--fast and accurate in their movement. Was glad to see they at least placed above the oft-overscored Bobrova/Soloviev.

Really looking forward to the FD tonight--can't wait!!
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:laugh: Oh ,doris..I wish there was an "I survived the B&B era" t-shirt..

I'm in complete agreement as to the eras that were difficult to survive. I'm amazed I'm here to tell the tale ..but the greater wonder is that my TV survived..:scowl:..;) ( It was a near thing. )

V/M did not have a good SD competition. Face it , fellow V/M fans. So you prefer their Latin interpretation to D/W's ?
Me , too . But V/M did not deliver. We can't know what might have happened without Scott's fall.

OTOh , did D/W skate their program really, really well ? Oh, yeah . ... Basta !

Now I'm getting ready for the crunch. I think D/W's program is absolutely perfect for them. I don't feel the same about Funny Face for V/M . I've had a hard time warming to it all season. Could they still knock it out of the park with their skating ? You know they could.

Whoever wins , will that be finito for the other couple ? In no way.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
ITA, colleen!

During the B&B era, I learned that tossing sock balls at the TV was the safest way of punishing it for showing me B&B. :laugh: Otherwise, I'm sure the TV would not have survived.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
who were B&B again? :laugh: I'm having a lot of fun envisioning Doris chucking socks across aroom towards a TV screen...
 
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