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Thread: Senior Ice Dance SD at 2:00 EST

  1. #61
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    I agree 8 points higher than P@B is an insult

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwiggin3 View Post
    Many felt like this meeting of D/W and V/M would somehow "settle" things with regards to who is the best team but Scott's fall has but a wrench it that. Clearly, they should be marked down for a fall but it would have been interesting to see what the scores would have been had he not fallen. Would they have been as close as many expected or would one team pull ahead? Unfortunately, the fall makes it hard to really determine who is the better couple (esp. since falls are so unusual in dance and especially with these teams. I think it was a freak accident that could have happened to either). I reckon we'll have to wait for Worlds. Hopefully, both teams skate their best and we can have a true comparison of both teams at their best.
    It is quite clear they would be behind without the fall, probably still several points. The fall wasnt even on an element, they lost 1 point and maybe a tiny bit on PCS, that is it. D&W as most of us expected now have the judges momentum and are pulling ahead (and I actually prefer V&M to D&W, just am seeing the current situation for what it is).

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellafurr View Post
    I agree 8 points higher than P@B is an insult
    Indeed it is. P&B did themselves no favors when they threw away their World medal to a junior team last year though. They had better medal at Worlds this year or they probably never will.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    IMO what's holding the Shibs back is their program - it's not their fault that Marina and Igor seem to have only one idea for a Latin dance. I agree that they should have taken the same approach as Natalie and Fabian...

    My dad asked me something that I hadn't really noticed before but now it seems to be glaringly obvious. Both V/M and D/W seem to skate very far apart for top teams when they do their footwork sections. They're better when they're in dance holds... D/W more so than V/M but there's still a gap... or is this a trick of the cameras?
    That's interesting. In my opinion, both Russan senior and junior dance teams do not project Latin feels this year regardless of their tecnhical excellence. Their Slovak heritage really show here, which is also true to Shpillband and Zouev who are ethnic Russians. Krylova/Camalenge at Detroit school is more interesting as its school have two "AUTHENTIC Latinos - Camelango and Scali. It is interesting that teams that are praised for "authentic Latin feels" this season really are authentic Latin dancers: Italians (Anna Cappellini/Luca Lanotte & Lorenza ALESSANDRINI / Simone VATURI; Sara HURTADO / Adria DIAZ (Spain), and Nathalie PECHALAT / Fabian BOURZAT; Gabriella PAPADAKIS / Guillaume CIZERON (France).

    Too bad that there are no competitive South American ice dancers to make the comparison more explicit.
    Last edited by CARA; 12-09-2011 at 04:43 PM.

  5. #65
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    Poor Scott. If i'm not mistaken, V/M havent actually fallen in competition since back in '07. Figures it had to happen here, at the one competiton they still haven't won. Oh well...hopefully they can take it next year. I too am a little confused by the huge point gap, although I'm no technical specialist, so I'm sure that D/W did outskate V/M technically this time, at least in terms of levels. I found the differences in GOE strange, though. Sure, V/M did look a little off in a couple of sections after the fall, but not that off. Regardless, D/W should be on top here, and they are. I hope both teams have great FD's, since the pressure is now off in terms of placement.

    I'm actually more confused by the fact that the Shibs are so close to W/P. I think this was W/P's best performance by far, and they absolutrely nailed the technical side as well this time. The Shibs program was nothing like any Latin piece I've ever seen. I'm not expecting them to have chemistry of anything, but they should at least try to move like Latin dancers. They were really blah compared to W/P and P/B (who were also great). I think the judges were really generous in the PCS department for these two this time.

    For the record, I think that these results should put talk about the Skate Canada bonus for the Canadian skaters to rest. If anythng, the Americans seemed to get a boost this time around. That being said, I agree with the placements completely, just not all of the numbers.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Yes, they were excellent, I just liked V/M better. Scott turned that fall into a plus with the crowd. Maybe not for the judges, though!
    I totally agree. I like the changes V/M have made so far. They are so enjoyable. Fall or no fall they are the standing-out one for me.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARA View Post
    That's interesting. In my opinion, both Russan senior and junior dance teams do not project Latin feels this year regardless of their tecnhical excellence. Their Slovak heritage really show here, which is also true to Shpillband and Zouev who are ethnic Russians. Krylova/Camalenge at Detroit school is more interesting as its school have two "AUTHENTIC Latinos - Camelango and Scali. It is interesting that teams that are praised for "authentic Latin feels" this season really are authentic Latin dancers: Italians (Anna Cappellini/Luca Lanotte & Lorenza ALESSANDRINI / Simone VATURI; Sara HURTADO / Adria DIAZ (Spain), and Nathalie PECHALAT / Fabian BOURZAT (France).

    Too bad that there are no competitive South American ice dancers to make the comparison more explicit.
    Camerlango and Scali are NOT Latino. They are Italian. There is a significant difference. Yes Spaniards and Italians have a common Meditarranean heritage, but that is a different thing entirely. Also, there are significant cultural differences between Spaniards and Latin Americans, who fit the actual definition of Latinos. So called latin dance is firmly rooted in Hispanic, Native American and African cultural communities in the Americas, not in Europe. That is why Flamenco and Paso Doble are defined separately from Latin dances. Spaniards don't even consider themselves Latinos. They use that term as a descriptor for Latin American immigrants to Spain. Frankly Spaniards are insulted when they are called Latinos. For them, it's like calling a British person an American because they speak the same language more or less. Calling an Italian a Latino is like calling a Norwegian an American because Norway and the island of Great Britain both border the North Sea. It's a complete non-sequitur.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino

    ETA: BTW this is what ballroom samba looks like, especially for a young team. The Shibs are clearly going for this vibe. Theirs is an entirely correct, by the numbers type of ballroom latin dance.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ef_2MKQnIw
    Last edited by jcoates; 12-09-2011 at 05:01 PM.

  8. #68
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    "Latin dancing" is the dancing of South America & the Carribbean (hint: Latin America); properly. None of the teams at the GPF are from South, Central or Carribbean America or have Latin roots. Not even the French. And their Italian coaches are not Latin American either.

    Specifically, the rhythms in the SD descriptions this year are:

    Rhumba, Chacha, & Mambo are Cuban.
    Samba is Brazilian.
    Merengue is Dominican.

    The only guy I recall being in elite ice dance with real Latin American roots was Ben Agosto. His dad was Puerto Rican. There were probably others, but I'm not an expert on the genealogy of ice dance teams. Sometimes you can be really surprised, especially by Americans whose ancestors were renamed by the immigration folks. Or whose mothers are of a different ethnicity .

    Here's the ISU description

    One to three of the following Latin American Rhythms: Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba, Mambo, Merengue.
    The Pattern Dance Elements can be skated to any of the above mentioned Rhythms (both elements to the same Rhythm or one element to one Rhythm and the second element to a different Rhythm), in the style of this (these) Rhythm(s), with the
    following range of tempo: 43 to 45 measures of four beats per minute (172-180 beats per minute). The tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance

    ...
    Latin American Rhythms are described in the ISU Ice Dance Music Rhythms Booklet 1995, pages 13
    to 20 (Note: Tango and Paso Doble, which are not included in the description, are not allowed).
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-09-2011 at 05:39 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARA View Post
    I perceive their style to be disadvantage here. Their natural style is very polished and elegant, and their edge quality very smooth. But passionate Latin dance is a bit raw - antithesis to the Shib's natural style. For this reason I wished that the Shibs would have gone for the P/B route - that is, a laid back caribbean style that projects good friends enjoying a party together. That way they could have skirted passionate Latin route and still be able to project Latin feel.

    I hope they take a note and do accordingly when they have to do SD Latin dance again in the future.
    They probably would have been better off score wise going that way, but they're young so it's a good idea to use this as an opportunity to get better in an area where they are lacking. I can't say how much they're using the opportunity, but at least they're using it. Though in the future, where all things are more crucial, I do agree that it would be wise to somehow subvert the latin theme.

  10. #70
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    This was the first time I'd seen V&M's SD and I loved it. Too bad about the fall but they were really on the edge so that's what happens. I am puzzled about the marks D&W have been getting all season though, not technically, but artistically because to my untrained eye they are really stagnating and maybe even going backwards. Even if you take V&M out of the equation, their marks seem consistently too high. What am I missing here - or have the judges decided D&W can`t be beaten?

  11. #71
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    Have you seen D/W's free dance? If you don't like that, I give up.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    It is quite clear they would be behind without the fall, probably still several points. The fall wasnt even on an element, they lost 1 point and maybe a tiny bit on PCS, that is it. D&W as most of us expected now have the judges momentum and are pulling ahead (and I actually prefer V&M to D&W, just am seeing the current situation for what it is).
    Read the posts were some others here have explained the outcome. The scores are justified. V/M would have been up there if it weren't for the mistakes.


    Quote Originally Posted by veravina View Post
    This was the first time I'd seen V&M's SD and I loved it. Too bad about the fall but they were really on the edge so that's what happens. I am puzzled about the marks D&W have been getting all season though, not technically, but artistically because to my untrained eye they are really stagnating and maybe even going backwards. Even if you take V&M out of the equation, their marks seem consistently too high. What am I missing here - or have the judges decided D&W can`t be beaten?
    This is a case where I think you really have to be in the rink to get a better understanding of the outcome. For me the dance is great, but it's not one of their best dances. I think the expectations we have from them makes us more negative than necessary. lol!

  13. #73
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I think that's true. When a team has been nearly perfect, any small failure of perfection is a shock.

  14. #74
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    I liked Virtue and Moir's lively kicks and steps in the short dance. Davis and White's short dance is only OK to me, though performed nicely here.

    The Fledermaus free dance, however, is Davis and White's best work ever.

    The best thing about ice dance is that, unlike singles, the programs are enjoyable and entertaining all the way up and down the roster, not just the top two or three.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    There are 2 rhumba sequences, one on the judge's side of the rink and one on the other side. The side of the rink determines whether it is the R1 or the R2 rhumba sequence. The dancers can choose to do R2Sq before R1Sq. The sequences do not have to be consecutive either. (R=rhumba, Sq=sequence)

    Here's Meryl & Charlie's rhumba sequences. They do them as the 2nd and 3rd elements in their program:

    2 R2Sq4+kpYYY 7.00 1.00 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 8.00
    3 R1Sq4+kpYYY 7.00 1.00 2 2 2 3 2 1 2 2 2 8.00

    rhumba sequences have 3 key points (kp=key point)

    Each key point is marked Y or N by the tech panel. Y=yes, N=no. If the team gets all Yeses, they get level 4 for the step. Level 4 has a base value of 7.

    The first key point is that little dipsy doodle quick change of edge at the start of the sequence (both the man and the lady must get it right to get the Yes:

    The second key point is the series of steps involving that wide stepping chocktaw, and it's for the lady's steps.
    The third key point is the series of steps involving that wide stepping chocktaw, and it's for the man's steps.

    The GOE's are assigned by the judge's (who also know what the steps of the rhumba are supposed to look like. So since Meryl and Charlie got level 4's it's not surprising the judges gave them nearly straight 2's for GOE. Consequently, they have 16 points for the rhumba.

    Now let's look at Tessa & Scott's rhumba:

    1 R2Sq3+kpYNY 1.00 6.00 0.93 2 1 3 2 2 2 2 1 2 6.93
    3 R1Sq4+kpYYY 1.00 7.00 0.79 2 0 2 1 2 1 1 2 2 7.79

    Tessa did not get the tricky edge in the first rhumba sequence (the second key point), so they only got level 3.
    Plus they were not as strong as they might have been in the 2nd sequence, at least in 5 of the judge's eyes. Even the judge that gave them a 3 in the first sequence dropped to 2 in the second, and felt it was not as strong.
    The result is that they only 14.72 for the rhumba.

    And so forth.

    jcoates' point about no prescribed type of Latin in skating is correct.

    ...:
    Doris, thanks so much for this explanation! It helps so much to understand what is being scored and how, as well as how to read the protocols!!! I really enjoyed both of these dances, can't wait to see them again on video, at nationals, and worlds!! We are so lucky! Now, back to looking at the other dancers to figure out their scores...

    Sorry...but, ETA: I have to rewatch again now to see where the tizzles were placed, but in case this is an easy question, are the twizzles part of the sequences or are they judged separately and under what/where? thanks in advance.

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