12-10-2011, 11:14 AM
It is funny to watch these comments...the two best teams in the world period! Now a direct comparison would be based on the strengths of both teams;
Skating Skill =even
Speed = D/W
edge quality = V/M
Basic positions and unison = V/M
interpretation = V/M
Guts and raw energy = D/W
Danceablity = V/M
Performance ability = even
Programs = depends on the year but this year = V/M ( alot in the short and closer in the free but still better)
My vote goes to V/M but there sure is a lot of passionate D/W fans trying to make a case when in reality it's not there over the entire body of work. I would say we will watch these two teams duke it out right up till the 2014 season is finished. Should be fun and should be great dancing....sit back and enjoy
12-10-2011, 11:23 AM
Its funny how not one of the categories cover the technical aspects which D/W would win by a huge margin. And the only category mentioned above I would give V/M the nod in is danceability. Yes Tessa knows how to point her toes but this is a sport. There is no comparison now. It's so clear and obvious for everyone to see. Just look at the SD. All the little nuances and small details in D/W program make it that much more difficult. There is no other team that can do that including V/M. The gap this year is as big as the Pacific and its as clear as day.
Originally Posted by bladz123
12-10-2011, 11:39 AM
nice try...the first four are all technical aspects, if you would like I will add;
connecting steps = V/M
lifts = V/M
twizzles = even
spins = D/W
Why so crazy for D/W they are great but really will never be compared to the great Russians of the 80's and 90's and certainly not sport changers. V/M have changed ice dancing while remaining true to the beauty of those like K/O, K/P, T/D, U/Z and the energy of K/B and A/P. You can huff and puff all you like but you will never convince this ice dance fan.
12-10-2011, 11:52 AM
V&M could do D&Ws freedance in there sleep but D&W caould not do V&M.
12-10-2011, 11:58 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Well, I sincerely doubt that Scott could do that great rotational lift in D&W's FD this year. Meryl is smaller than Tessa. To get the torque up to spin her that fast, while she has increased the rotational moment of inertia by sitting straight up, rather than doing the usual -my head on my knee position, takes huge strength & raw power.
12-10-2011, 12:01 PM
Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program
Even with the fall i enjoyed Voir's skate quite a bit more than Marlie. Meryl didn't really sell it as she did at Skate America, they both lacked the reckless abandon I think this program needs. It seems as if both teams' scores continue to be inflated each time they skate...this did not look like a record-breaking skate and Voir was only a few hundredth of their best even with a fall.
12-10-2011, 12:27 PM
Off the ice
In that case, wouldn't it be more accurate that Scott couldn't do that lift with his current partner, rather than he couldn't do it, period? This is academic as he's not going to switch partners, but it's not the first time we've seen teams do something that's made possible to some extent because of size differences (or lack of thereof).
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
Eurosport (Nicky, I imagine) was not impressed with D/W; he thought it didn't have enough of a Latin feel and disapproved of some of the holds and hold changes. I was unimpressed for different reasons - they often look uncontrolled to me, and the movement and positions don't seem quite finished (her position in the lift is quite unattractive, IMO). Also I hate getting Lambada stuck in my head every time I hear On the Floor. Jennifer Lopez has a lot to answer for. If I had to point to the biggest difference between V/M and D/W in general, it's that Meryl and Charlie are obviously doing difficult things, while Tessa and Scott usually make difficult things look smooth and easy. I know which style I prefer.
I do agree with your comment on the other thread about P/B's lift; I see it as their attempt at doing something Canton-like, and disapprove of the result. I also don't like her flipping him over; it looks ungainly and adds nothing to the program. But other than that I love this SD - it's so much fun!
Latin rhythm really doesn't do the Shibs any favors. I thought they were lucky to get the marks they did.
Last edited by Buttercup; 12-10-2011 at 12:29 PM.
12-10-2011, 12:53 PM
Of course they cannot be compared to the Russians of the 80's and 90's because D/W is much better than them! People who do like D/W usually fall into three categories.
Originally Posted by bladz123
A. They are haters
B. They are fans of their rivals
C. They are jealous of Meryl's beauty
Are you A, B or C? Or a combination of the three?
12-10-2011, 12:54 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
12-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
12-10-2011, 01:24 PM
How do you know if Scott can do that lift or not with Tessa?
12-10-2011, 01:32 PM
I wanted to post mainly regarding the Shibutanis.
They are really starting to come into this style beautifully. In the first competitions of the season they didn't have nearly the same attack and verve that they do now. Why would they want to go with the softer laid back slightly messy styling of P/B's SD. That style works well on P/B because it suits their personality. I think one of the previous posters got it right when they said that the Shibs greatest strength is the purity of their technique. They've taken that purity of edge and movement and really sharpened and ratcheted it up to suit this fun edgy Latin SD. They're also not just sharp edges but they're also managing to add a bit of swooping roundness and curving to some of the movement- especially in the rumba sections.
Yes, they could play with the details of this program even more and add a bit more casualness and humor to counter the sharpness. But their strength in their expression is much improved. Maia is bringing on a little too much one note "try" in her smile and expression but she's young still and with maturity will learn to bring more shades to her expression.
Alex is the one who is starting to wow me! He's got this growing dash and subtle attitude in his expression that draws my attention- he's got a look in his eye that's starting to come across- he's learning to perform for the audience a la Scott Moir- plus a little something that's all his own.
They're only going to get better- go Shibs!
Last edited by missysays; 12-10-2011 at 02:22 PM.
12-10-2011, 02:10 PM
Constable , Costume Police
Late to the party as usual . When I've spent most of the day glued to the TV , I can't rush right off to spend the other half at the computer.. of course , the upside is , the initial wave of viciousness has blown over by the time I get here .
I have to say that I really don't understand the mindset that goes - if you like one of the two top teams you must hate the other. That's a good way to miss out on a lot of pleasure. Mind you , if your pleasure lies in being mean spirited..that's another matter and really has nothing to do with skating.
I was initially a bit fazed by the size of D/W's lead , but after doris' very informative breakdown , I can live with it. It might have been a bit smaller with another panel , but you can't really say it's unfair.
12-10-2011, 02:20 PM
As Doris pointed out, it's a simple matter of physics. Tessa is taller and not at small as Meryl. The height difference between her and Scott is less significant than between Meryl and Charlie. Anyone who knows the physics of lifting will tell you that it's not only easier to lift a smaller person relative to your own height and weight, but its also easier to maneuver that person into more difficult positions and to travel at greater speed while performing the lift. This is true of both ice dancers and pairs. Doris already broke out the physical reasons why it's easier for Meryl to achieve that specific split position and why Charlie can lift and maintain her in it while continuing his speed. There's a reason why many of V/M's rotational lifts involve Tessa being draped around Scott's shoulders. It physically more manageable to lift a body of more similar height in more or less of a "fireman's carry" position than in a position more apart from your own center of gravity (like the split rotational lift). Trust me I know something about lifting as a former high school wrestler. We routinely paired off against heavier practice partner in training and often had to lift them. I was frequently paired with a guy 20-30 pounds heavier than me and the most efficient means of lifting him (by light years) was in a fireman's carry over my shoulders.
Originally Posted by bellafurr
Nicky has become increasingly crabby about dance recently and often his criticisms are based on his own sometimes limited aesthetic taste or on his personal experience with ice dance from several decades ago. He is very taste specific and often has trouble broadening his perspective. His comments are usually about what he wants to see as opposed to what the skaters are actually doing or intending to do.
Originally Posted by Buttercup
As to the criticism of D/W's difficulty not looking as effortless as V/M, please forgive me Buttercup, but that has become an almost cliched argument among many fans based on initial impressions of the two teams from 5-6 years ago. It's been carried over, in particular by V/M fans, for years as a fallback argument whenever D/W make strides to challenge or defeat V/M. It's almost like a security blanket to justify an entrenched unwillingness to acknowledge any inprovement in movement, line, unison, dance quality, edge quality, intricacy, interaction or performance that D/W have made. It casually assumes that they have not and can never make sufficient improvements to be accepted as better than V/M under any circumstances.
It's the same flawed logic that fans employ when comparing scores across events or between skaters. The assumption is that there is a particular standard or score that a skater or team should fall within based either on previous season's or personal bests or on personal opinion or perception by the viewer. That assumes that any score outside that expected range must be anomalous. It ignores the existence of facts that are based on what the skaters actually do on the ice which might counteract that logic and force a reassessment of accepted assumptions. The super quick movement in an out of all elements and the increased connecting steps between them by D/W which are all done at tremendous speed would massively trip up most teams other than V/M. That is what they make look easy. The speed. Plus many styles of latin dance are not meant to look as restrained as other ballroom forms, especially if ballroom latin is not what you are going for. The abandon and looseness they show is spot on for latin night club dancing. Classic ballet body lines and pointed toes are unnecessary for this dance and would actually detract from it.
Lastly, as Doris and I have pointed out, the Shibs dance is entirely appropriate and correct ballroom latin in its style. Ballroom latin is meant to have a restrained character to it. Clearly less earthiness and soul and more focused on precision and technique. Their scores were not lucky, but based largely on improved levels from previous competitions. D/W's club style is conversely not intended to have such a rigid structure to it. It goes full on for the earthy Carribean/night club dance style prevalent in latin dancing done in large cities like NYC and Miami. There is an uptempo raunchiness to it that is entirely intentional, including the saucier positions they incorporate. V/M's more sensual take on the same style of latin dance, softens their choreographic impression (which frankly is usually the approach they take for most dances). So I feel that many fans confuse the intentional incorporation of sensuality by V/M for smoothness that hides their difficulty while also expecting the same from D/W despite them having a different set of goals for their own dance.
Last edited by jcoates; 12-10-2011 at 02:29 PM.
12-10-2011, 02:52 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
jcoates, Thank you for another great post.
I think it is also valid to consider that part of the ISU's desire to change the CD/OD format to the SD was to retain the ability to compare teams on fixed steps while introducing a more modern look to that part of the competition, in order to appeal to a crowd not wholly consisting of older ladies (like me). It was clear that they were looking for more modern music and dance style choices when they kept talking about Dancing With The Stars and when Cannuscio & McManus last year and Kholoniuk & Nosulia this year did very well with I Kick the Windows Out the Car in the SD. It's why I&K are using a really annoying (to old lady me) Black Eyed Peas version of Mas Que Nada this year. Consequently JLo doing the On the Floor lambada in Spanish was a really smart choice for D&W and Mujer Latina by Thalia & Hip Hip Chin Chin Club des Belugas were a smart choice for V&M.
D&W went the extra way and did their best to bring the club dance itself to the ice, and whether you like it or not, it was probably a smart choice.