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Thread: Senior Ice Dance SD at 2:00 EST

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcoates View Post
    As Doris pointed out, it's a simple matter of physics. Tessa is taller and not at small as Meryl. The height difference between her and Scott is less significant than between Meryl and Charlie. Anyone who knows the physics of lifting will tell you that it's not only easier to lift a smaller person relative to your own height and weight, but its also easier to maneuver that person into more difficult positions and to travel at greater speed while performing the lift. This is true of both ice dancers and pairs. Doris already broke out the physical reasons why it's easier for Meryl to achieve that specific split position and why Charlie can lift and maintain her in it while continuing his speed. There's a reason why many of V/M's rotational lifts involve Tessa being draped around Scott's shoulders. It physically more manageable to lift a body of more similar height in more or less of a "fireman's carry" position than in a position more apart from your own center of gravity (like the split rotational lift). Trust me I know something about lifting as a former high school wrestler. We routinely paired off against heavier practice partner in training and often had to lift them. I was frequently paired with a guy 20-30 pounds heavier than me and the most efficient means of lifting him (by light years) was in a fireman's carry over my shoulders.



    Nicky has become increasingly crabby about dance recently and often his criticisms are based on his own sometimes limited aesthetic taste or on his personal experience with ice dance from several decades ago. He is very taste specific and often has trouble broadening his perspective. His comments are usually about what he wants to see as opposed to what the skaters are actually doing or intending to do.

    As to the criticism of D/W's difficulty not looking as effortless as V/M, please forgive me Buttercup, but that has become an almost cliched argument among many fans based on initial impressions of the two teams from 5-6 years ago. It's been carried over, in particular by V/M fans, for years as a fallback argument whenever D/W make strides to challenge or defeat V/M. It's almost like a security blanket to justify an entrenched unwillingness to acknowledge any inprovement in movement, line, unison, dance quality, edge quality, intricacy, interaction or performance that D/W have made. It casually assumes that they have not and can never make sufficient improvements to be accepted as better than V/M under any circumstances.

    It's the same flawed logic that fans employ when comparing scores across events or between skaters. The assumption is that there is a particular standard or score that a skater or team should fall within based either on previous season's or personal bests or on personal opinion or perception by the viewer. That assumes that any score outside that expected range must be anomalous. It ignores the existence of facts that are based on what the skaters actually do on the ice which might counteract that logic and force a reassessment of accepted assumptions. The super quick movement in an out of all elements and the increased connecting steps between them by D/W which are all done at tremendous speed would massively trip up most teams other than V/M. That is what they make look easy. The speed. Plus many styles of latin dance are not meant to look as restrained as other ballroom forms, especially if ballroom latin is not what you are going for. The abandon and looseness they show is spot on for latin night club dancing. Classic ballet body lines and pointed toes are unnecessary for this dance and would actually detract from it.

    Lastly, as Doris and I have pointed out, the Shibs dance is entirely appropriate and correct ballroom latin in its style. Ballroom latin is meant to have a restrained character to it. Clearly less earthiness and soul and more focused on precision and technique. Their scores were not lucky, but based largely on improved levels from previous competitions. D/W's club style is conversely not intended to have such a rigid structure to it. It goes full on for the earthy Carribean/night club dance style prevalent in latin dancing done in large cities like NYC and Miami. There is an uptempo raunchiness to it that is entirely intentional, including the saucier positions they incorporate. V/M's more sensual take on the same style of latin dance, softens their choreographic impression (which frankly is usually the approach they take for most dances). So I feel that many fans confuse the intentional incorporation of sensuality by V/M for smoothness that hides their difficulty while also expecting the same from D/W despite them having a different set of goals for their own dance.
    This probably the best, smartest post I ever saw on here. MAYBE now people will start to understand a little better. Im saving this post. Great job!

  2. #122
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcoates View Post
    As to the criticism of D/W's difficulty not looking as effortless as V/M, please forgive me Buttercup, but that has become an almost cliched argument among many fans based on initial impressions of the two teams from 5-6 years ago. It's been carried over, in particular by V/M fans, for years as a fallback argument whenever D/W make strides to challenge or defeat V/M. It's almost like a security blanket to justify an entrenched unwillingness to acknowledge any inprovement in movement, line, unison, dance quality, edge quality, intricacy, interaction or performance that D/W have made. It casually assumes that they have not and can never make sufficient improvements to be accepted as better than V/M under any circumstances.
    An argument made by many is not necessarily a cliche. Is it so hard to fathom that some people truly perceive D/W's skating as less attractive and appealing than other teams', or believe that V/M are the more polished ice dancers? By the same token, one could argue that arguments in favor of D/W or arguments about other skaters are also trite and cliched. But this doesn't always mean they are wrong. You may see compelling evidence why I should change my views, but I don't perceive what I'm seeing on the ice the same way you do.

    My initial impression of D/W is now almost four years old; it was of two people skating very fast but not really showing anything particularly appealing as dancers (ES didn't like them then, either; I'm guessing it was Chris and Simon). This has not changed over the years; they still skate very fast, and something about their skating still looks unfinished and unrefined to me. My first impression of V/M, by the way, was that Dark Eyes did not suit Tessa's style. I am a fan of neither team, but I can appreciate V/M's skating and some of their programs (not this year's FD, however). I find that I cannot do the same with D/W; their skating is just not attractive and not appealing to me in any way. I believe that we are all entitled to our opinions of skaters, whether positive or negative, even if to others they seem off the mark? Doris can explain why they are marked so highly, and I appreciate what she's doing, but I don't necessarily agree with her assessment on certain points - and in addition, I feel the current judging over-values certain things and undervalues others.

    And yes, I realize the judges love D/W. I don't agree with every call skating judges make, either, and I don't think anyone on this forum can say that they do. I don't recall widespread agreement with DomShabs' marks in their final seasons, for instance.

    To be honest, I'm probably done with ice dance for the foreseeable future. I don't enjoy it much these days, and not just because there's a dominant team I dislike. There's just not enough that I find appealing, and too many of the teams I did admire are no longer competing, with few of the newer teams holding my interest. I'd rather watch ladies and pairs (much as I disapprove of the direction V/T are going in choreographically).

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcoates View Post
    As Doris pointed out, it's a simple matter of physics. Tessa is taller and not at small as Meryl. The height difference between her and Scott is less significant than between Meryl and Charlie. Anyone who knows the physics of lifting will tell you that it's not only easier to lift a smaller person relative to your own height and weight, but its also easier to maneuver that person into more difficult positions and to travel at greater speed while performing the lift. This is true of both ice dancers and pairs. Doris already broke out the physical reasons why it's easier for Meryl to achieve that specific split position and why Charlie can lift and maintain her in it while continuing his speed. There's a reason why many of V/M's rotational lifts involve Tessa being draped around Scott's shoulders. It physically more manageable to lift a body of more similar height in more or less of a "fireman's carry" position than in a position more apart from your own center of gravity (like the split rotational lift). Trust me I know something about lifting as a former high school wrestler. We routinely paired off against heavier practice partner in training and often had to lift them. I was frequently paired with a guy 20-30 pounds heavier than me and the most efficient means of lifting him (by light years) was in a fireman's carry over my shoulders.



    Nicky has become increasingly crabby about dance recently and often his criticisms are based on his own sometimes limited aesthetic taste or on his personal experience with ice dance from several decades ago. He is very taste specific and often has trouble broadening his perspective. His comments are usually about what he wants to see as opposed to what the skaters are actually doing or intending to do.

    As to the criticism of D/W's difficulty not looking as effortless as V/M, please forgive me Buttercup, but that has become an almost cliched argument among many fans based on initial impressions of the two teams from 5-6 years ago. It's been carried over, in particular by V/M fans, for years as a fallback argument whenever D/W make strides to challenge or defeat V/M. It's almost like a security blanket to justify an entrenched unwillingness to acknowledge any inprovement in movement, line, unison, dance quality, edge quality, intricacy, interaction or performance that D/W have made. It casually assumes that they have not and can never make sufficient improvements to be accepted as better than V/M under any circumstances.

    It's the same flawed logic that fans employ when comparing scores across events or between skaters. The assumption is that there is a particular standard or score that a skater or team should fall within based either on previous season's or personal bests or on personal opinion or perception by the viewer. That assumes that any score outside that expected range must be anomalous. It ignores the existence of facts that are based on what the skaters actually do on the ice which might counteract that logic and force a reassessment of accepted assumptions. The super quick movement in an out of all elements and the increased connecting steps between them by D/W which are all done at tremendous speed would massively trip up most teams other than V/M. That is what they make look easy. The speed. Plus many styles of latin dance are not meant to look as restrained as other ballroom forms, especially if ballroom latin is not what you are going for. The abandon and looseness they show is spot on for latin night club dancing. Classic ballet body lines and pointed toes are unnecessary for this dance and would actually detract from it.

    Lastly, as Doris and I have pointed out, the Shibs dance is entirely appropriate and correct ballroom latin in its style. Ballroom latin is meant to have a restrained character to it. Clearly less earthiness and soul and more focused on precision and technique. Their scores were not lucky, but based largely on improved levels from previous competitions. D/W's club style is conversely not intended to have such a rigid structure to it. It goes full on for the earthy Carribean/night club dance style prevalent in latin dancing done in large cities like NYC and Miami. There is an uptempo raunchiness to it that is entirely intentional, including the saucier positions they incorporate. V/M's more sensual take on the same style of latin dance, softens their choreographic impression (which frankly is usually the approach they take for most dances). So I feel that many fans confuse the intentional incorporation of sensuality by V/M for smoothness that hides their difficulty while also expecting the same from D/W despite them having a different set of goals for their own dance.
    Nice post.

    I was quite bothered that people felt that the Shibs had some sort of luck with their scores. Their base value was 4.5 points higher than in NHK. They scored about 6 points higher here than at NHK -- so most of it was on levels alone. In fact, I would argue that some of the judges agreed with the criticism -- their PCS scores were the lowest out of the entire group. I think one could argue that W/P should have gotten higher PCS rather than that the Shibs should have had lower PCS.

    I agree with Colleen why you have to dislike one team if you like the other. I also don't know why, as jcoates highlighted here why one assumes that D/W doesn't have any chance of beating V/M on a consistent basis. In fact in the free dance at Worlds, D/W HAS beaten V/M on a consistent basis (since 2009 when they were off the podium by .04). I also am bothered that people act that D/W haven't made any strides in their own development as a team to get those higher scores, but that the judges are just "giving them the scores." I can see the argument of perhaps the magnitude of the lead --maybe a different set of judges would only score them with a 2 or 3 point lead, but in the end I think the placements are about right.

  4. #124
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Actually Eurosport liked them a lot at first sight (CD in 2007 at Worlds):

    http://www.youtube.com/user/meryland.../5/S6V6u8-wXFk

    Nicky has not been a fan the last couple years, though.

  5. #125
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    I realize there is tension in this thread between or among some posters, but I really find it informative - so thanks for the discussion.

  6. #126
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    lol. The ones doing the informing will have you believe V&M cant skate amd D&W are the best ever.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by bellafurr View Post
    lol. The ones doing the informing will have you believe V&M cant skate amd D&W are the best ever.
    D & W are the best ever. V/M skate very well, they are just a few levels below D/W thats all.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by missysays View Post
    Alex is the one who is starting to wow me! He's got this growing dash and subtle attitude in his expression that draws my attention- he's got a look in his eye that's starting to come across- he's learning to perform for the audience a la Scott Moir- plus a little something that's all his own.
    I think EVERY male ice dancer should work with Igor for a season or two... they're the best! (and I'm not just basing that on the newest crop...)

  9. #129
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    Buttercup, it's not hard to fathom that fans would prefer one team or another over D/W. I have never advocated otherwise. In fact I do like V/M. However it is somewhat exasperating to know that V/M fans in particular, but also fans of other teams, routinely make largely predictable arguments based on longstanding biases rather than on the actual performance on the day. That sort of thinking assumes that there is some consistent level of quality that V/M possess that is so significantly higher than D/W that it's almost not worth comparing them or even holding a competition in the first place. Which is ironic given how often fans complain about judges pre-judging events based on common wisdom while they are actually guilty of doing the very same thing with regard to their favorites. It's one thing to like or prefer particular skater or team, but to dismiss their competition out of hand consistently or to refuse to look at what they are doing with fresh eyes is rather unfair IMO. Lord knows, I have had to acknowledge occasions when D/W have been inferior to other teams. It is frustrating and at times confusing. I get that. The 2007-2008 season was painful b/c D/W were in a dog fight with P/B and F/S most of the season. But, I understood that at the time both teams were better compulsory dancers and had slightly better constructed ODs than D/W.

    As to the ES guys, they actually liked D/W (while surprised somewhat) in the Rhumba CD and the Tango OD. They were impressed with how strong they were in their debut event. Their criticism really crept up during the following season. They disliked their Argentine Tango CD b/c the patter was not as big and there were timing issues. They also preferred P/B's OD to theirs and thought D/W's Rigby FD was too open. The next year, their criticism was more about sloppy errors in the OD and loss of speed at the end of the paso. They were very enthusiastic about the S&D FD, particularly at Worlds. During the Olympic season, they went back and forth between D/W and V/M over both their OD and FD. So to say they did not like them is a stretch. In fact they tend to be very big fans of Charlie in particular, they just don't always prefer the choreography of some of their programs.

    As to feeling D/W are unappealing to you as dancers, that's fine. But to extend that feeling so far as to dismiss or ignore what they actually do when competing is unfair IMO. Like them or not, if they do something well as called for under the rules of competition, they should be recognized for it.

    You are correct that everyone is entitled to their opinion, good or bad, but when those opinions are expressed in a public forum intended to involved mutual conversation, one should expect to have to defend one's position from time to time, especially if facts contradict it. Also, you don't have to agree with the judges and their marks to understand why they gave them. And yes, COP does undervalue some things, but so did 6.0 particularly when it looked past the inequality of dance partners.

    If you are done with dance, all I can say is I'm sorry to hear that. I can only hope you will reconsider your feeling on that score.

  10. #130
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    No, that's not what I think, although there are posters on this thread who think D&W are the best ever, and there are other posters here who think V&M are the best ever.

    Both are misinformed: Torvill & Dean were the best ever closely followed by Pakhomova & Gorshkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Usova & Zhulin. There are those who claim Grishuk and Platov are on that list as well.

    Both teams could join that list though; they are both that good. Liking one does not keep a person from like the other.

    Buttercup, I hope you will stick with dance. I suffered through the Bestemianova & Bukin era while loving Klimova & Ponomarenko, and suffered through the Grishuk & Platov era while loving Usova & Zhulin, Rahkamo & Kokko, and a number of other teams more than them.. Nothing was as difficult as the Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

    Defiitely the effort was worth it.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 12-10-2011 at 04:15 PM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Actually Eurosport liked them a lot at first sight (CD in 2007 at Worlds):

    http://www.youtube.com/user/meryland.../5/S6V6u8-wXFk

    Nicky has not been a fan the last couple years, though.
    In fairness, Nicky tends not to be a fan of whomever is the dominant dance team at the moment. He starts questioning and second-guessing their decisions and choices almost as soon as they start getting consistently high scores (regardless of the team in question). He tends to gravitate to the next up and coming team behind them. He seems very keen on P/B and W/P at the moment.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    No, that's not what I think, although there are posters on this thread who think D&W are the best ever, and there are other posters here who think V&M are the best ever.

    Both are misinformed: Torvill & Dean were the best ever closely followed by Pakhomova & Gorshkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Usova & Zhulin. There are those who claim Grishuk and Platov are on that list as well.

    Both teams could join that list though; they are both that good. Liking one does not keep a person from like the other.

    Buttercup, I hope you will stick with dance. I suffered through the Bestemianova & Bukin era while loving Klimova & Ponomarenko, and suffered through the Grishuk & Platov era while loving Usova & Zhulin, Rahkamo & Kokko, and a number of other teams more than them.. Nothing was as difficult as the Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

    Defiitely the effort was worth it.


    As a fan with very little knowledge and not personal connection to the teams, I feel it is simply a honor to get to have such great teams compete AND to watch it (nearly live) and then rewatch through all the great analysis offered here. It's really hard for me to take seriously the "haters" of either team, so easy for me to glide past the tension and just enjoy the skating and commentary!

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Klimova & Ponomarenko


    Usova & Zhulin


    Fusar-Poli/Margaglio
    :

    Chait & Sakhnovski!

    Watanabe & Kido!

    Silverstein and Pekarek!

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    No, that's not what I think, although there are posters on this thread who think D&W are the best ever, and there are other posters here who think V&M are the best ever.

    Both are misinformed: Torvill & Dean were the best ever closely followed by Pakhomova & Gorshkov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Usova & Zhulin. There are those who claim Grishuk and Platov are on that list as well.

    Both teams could join that list though; they are both that good. Liking one does not keep a person from like the other.

    Buttercup, I hope you will stick with dance. I suffered through the Bestemianova & Bukin era while loving Klimova & Ponomarenko, and suffered through the Grishuk & Platov era while loving Usova & Zhulin, Rahkamo & Kokko, and a number of other teams more than them.. Nothing was as difficult as the Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

    Defiitely the effort was worth it.
    Agreed on all counts, Doris! I certainly concur that D/W and V/M will end up on the best-ever list, if they haven't already made it. As with the arguments over YuNa vs. Mao, my take is that we're darned lucky to be here for an era in which two such memorable teams are skating at the peak of their abilities, and I reserve my right to love both of them.

    The Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era...gotta love it!

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Fusar-Poli/Margaglio era, though. I persevered.

    Defiitely the effort was worth it.
    at least in their case there was a dramatic comedy (or comedic drama) whenever they skated... especially if he dropped her or fell or, you know, did anything other than just stand their and look yummy.

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