Ladies' programs with two triple-triples

[Brenda]

, they could avoid these by spreading their jumps throughout the program and start off with a 2A-3T, similar to what the aforementioned ladies appear to be going for this season, a 2A-3T in the opening parts of their programs and then repeating 3Lz (3F in Wagner's case) and 3Lo, still gaining big base value (but not as big as Brenda pointed off but still very high nonetheless without the risk of a 3-3 and getting the 2A-3T out of the way early).

yep, repeating the loop is the best points maximizer (in a 3A-less world) since you can use it at the end of a combo and it's only 0.2 points less than a 3F.

in fact, if the repeated loop was combined with a 2A, then you do get to what I believe is the theoretical maximum (in a world without 3A): 3Z-2R, 2A-3R, 2A-3T, 3Z, 3F, 3R, 3S with a 2R as the third jump on any one of the three combos. with 2.1 potential GOE from having a triple in each jumping pass, total point potential 60.7 before time-bonus factoring.

of course 2A-3R can be difficult too...

[burntBREAD]

yep, repeating the loop is the best points maximizer (in a 3A-less world) since you can use it at the end of a combo and it's only 0.2 points less than a 3F.

in fact, if the repeated loop was combined with a 2A, then you do get to what I believe is the theoretical maximum (in a world without 3A): 3Z-2R, 2A-3R, 2A-3T, 3Z, 3F, 3R, 3S with a 2R as the third jump on any one of the three combos. with 2.1 potential GOE from having a triple in each jumping pass, total point potential 60.7 before time-bonus factoring.

of course 2A-3R can be difficult too...

Yeah, I've only seen one 2A-3Lo and it's from Miyabi Oba who has ridiculously low jumps (but might rotate faster than even Tara Lipinski in her heyday) and can't do a lutz/flip consistently.

[Krislite]

yep, repeating the loop is the best points maximizer (in a 3A-less world) since you can use it at the end of a combo and it's only 0.2 points less than a 3F.

in fact, if the repeated loop was combined with a 2A, then you do get to what I believe is the theoretical maximum (in a world without 3A): 3Z-2R, 2A-3R, 2A-3T, 3Z, 3F, 3R, 3S with a 2R as the third jump on any one of the three combos. with 2.1 potential GOE from having a triple in each jumping pass, total point potential 60.7 before time-bonus factoring.

of course 2A-3R can be difficult too...

Again, if we consider risk-mitigation doing 3Loops at the back-end of combinations is not prudent for point-maximization. They are extremely prone to downgrades and UR calls by the tech panel. Better to do 3Lz-combo and 3F-combo then repeat the both the lutz and the flip, while also including a 2A+3T. Something like:

2A+3T
3Lz+2L
3F+2L+2L
3Lz
3F
3L
3S

Is a pretty good "safe" program under COP--with the riskiest element being a 2A+3T.

[Brenda]

Again, if we consider risk-mitigation doing 3Loops at the back-end of combinations is not prudent for point-maximization. They are extremely prone to downgrades and UR calls by the tech panel. Better to do 3Lz-combo and 3F-combo then repeat the both the lutz and the flip, while also including a 2A+3T. Something like:

2A+3T
3Lz+2L
3F+2L+2L
3Lz
3F
3L
3S

Is a pretty good "safe" program under COP--with the riskiest element being a 2A+3T.

that's why I said 2A-3R is difficult; my point was actually to find the layout that would produce that theoretical point maximum with 7 non-axel triples and show that due to GOE factoring and combination limitations, that theoretical layout doesn't include any 3-3's, not necessarily what is safer.

If you really want to talk about risk, repeating both 3Z and 3F is actually a pretty bad strategy under COP. these days most ladies flutz or lip, and even the ones who have correct edges often have other problems with one of the jumps (i.e. Tuktamysheva neither flutzes nor lips, but she often doubles the flip). repeating both means risking edge calls on two jumping passes as opposed to one if you only repeat your better lutz/flip. Edge calls are -2 to -3 GOE...sometimes -1 if the jump otherwise has good flow, etc. That's why so many ladies are repeating the triple loop these days (i.e. solo 3R and 3R-2T-2R), because it is only 0.9 points less than a Lutz (or 0.2 less than a Flip) and then factor in the possibility of getting positive GOE over negative GOE for an edge call, and the Loop is still a better jump to repeat (or even salchow, whichever is more solid).

Repeating a 3T is also a good option if your 2A-3T combo is solid, because a 2A-3T-2R, 2A-3T, 3Z/F-2R, 3Z, 3F, 3R, 3S layout is still a lot of points. It works out very well for Lipnitskaia...even though her 2A is very ugly, she's very consistent with the combo (and doing two very similar combos makes practice much more efficient).