SENIOR LADIES FREE SKATING Thread

[Jo1]

Rightfully so Tonichelle but as I said, fast does not make for gracefullness. That is important to me.

[bekalc]

I tend to get very worried when I see very young girls dressed like adults, also. I don't care what the prevailing fashions are among teenagers in any country--they often dress to rebel and to shock their parents. But youngsters in a public arena (skaters, child actors, models in jeans and perfume ads, and so on) are generally dressed by adults, and those adults are playing with fire and should know better.

I don't know if anyone here remembers the film Taxi Driver. One character in this intense, edgy movie was a very young girl who--to be delicate--was a member of the oldest profession. An uproar ensued before filming, when a very young actress (age 12 or 13) was chosen for the role. The filmmakers said that they had carefully had the child evaluated by a psychiatrist, and she was not in any danger of being damaged by playing such a charged role. The trouble is, they didn't give any psychological examinations to any of the moviegoers. One of them, an unhinged young man, developed a crush on the actress and stalked her. When she didn't pay any mind to him--and by this time some years had gone by, and she was in college--he decided to emulate the plot of the movie to gain her attention. So he shot the President of the United States, Ronald Reagan, and three other people. His name was John Hinckley. He's still in jail, and fortunately Reagan survived, but his press secretary is still in a wheelchair after thirty-one years.

My point is not that Mishin is setting up for another John Hinckley. I'm explaining why after all my years on this planet, I haven't gotten any less worried about how people depict young girls when there are other choices. If the kid skates well, she doesn't need to be provocatively clothed to eke out more points from the judges. If she doesn't skate well, a dress (or a half dress) isn't going to make any difference to her ranking.

And yes, i am older. Am I a prude? Maybe, maybe not. But I do have a healthy distrust for certain aspects of human nature. Why tempt fate when you don't have to?

But we are talking about different cultures here. I haven't seen Liza's costume but I would point out that different cultures do play a role. I remember people making comments about a pose the Russian World Championship Gymnastics team made a year ago, and people pointing out that different groups dress differently. What is obscene dress in some cultures isn't necessarily obscene in other cultures. The way a lot of normal American women dress would be obscene in Islamic cultures.

Originally Posted by CARA
Please do read my comment again, for I am not comparing Mr. Mishin to Jerry Sandusky, an alleged child molester. Rather, I am comparing Mr. Mishin to Joe Paterno, a now disgraced Penn State coach, who was allegedly informed of molestation by his assistant coach and passed onto that information to his school official. Mr. Paterno might or might not be legally liable.

Whose to say that Mishin has anything to do whatsoever with Liza's costume choices. Mishin doesn't strike me as the type who is particularly all that into fashion. And he may very well feel its far more appropriate to leave the comments about Liza's costuming choices to her female (long time coach) and her mother. Its like the male teacher perhaps not commenting on how the female student is dressed and leaving it up to the female teachers, far more appropriate.

And inappropriate clothing is hugely different from child molestation. One is a crime the other isn't. And who knows maybe its what Liza herself wanted to wear.

[CARA]

I am well aware of what happened at Penn State and the vast difference between Mr. Patterno's actions and the crimes allegedly committed by Jerry Sandusky. I still find your original post inappropriate. Suggesting that allowing a skater to wear an age-inappropriate dress is even in the same league as not reporting the rape of a boy is way off the mark.

Both incidents have to do with priorities as I mentioned previously - Placing the child's well-being vs. winning at any cost. It's the same mentality.

Though it has nothing to do with this thread, which should be about the accomplishments of the talented skaters who competed yesterday, I'd like to add that you're essentially suggesting that because there are creepy evil pedophiles in the world, we should make sure nobody does anything that might set them off. Which is so wrong I don't even know where to start. This is the same type of thinking that leads to women and even little girls being subjected to ridiculous modesty restrictions in many cultures - because men supposedly can't control themselves otherwise.

I am well-aware that no one has control over what sick-minded individuals do. I am merely attempting to increase people's awareness so as not to tempt sick individuals any more than they already are. But at the same time you are insulting majority of men who are not attracted to children. There are vast differences. I did not go out to insult majority of male half of the spieces.

If Liza wants to wear a tacky dress, that's her business, and at most, her mother's business. She's not the first teenager to wear revealing clothing in public. It's not even nearly as revealing as most swimsuits.

You are assuming Liza has a choice; I assume no such thing. At best we do not know.

[npavel]

Rightfully so Tonichelle but as I said, fast does not make for gracefullness. That is important to me.

she is no pretty princess and never will be, fortunately. she has a modern approach to the music and interprets it with character

[R.D.]

Totally forgot GPF was on NBC this weekend until I saw a USFS tweet- unfortunately the event was already 10 min in. So I caught the tail end of Liza's routine- and tried to see what the hoopla in this thread is about. Still don't get it because I really don't see anything wrong. Believe me, I've seen FAR worse stuff on younger girls...

But one thing I did notice that I missed on the IN stream is Czisny after her skate. She obviously looked like she was trying not to cry, but on the HDTV screen I could actually see her eyes watering (something I couldn't make out on the small window during the livestream) after her scores were announced. I think Nationals is going to be a REAL BIG test for her, because I've talked about this roller-coaster ride her career has been on ever since she started- is she heading back down again? Without a healthy, top-of-her-game Czisny the US ladies don't have a prayer at 3 spots any more. Nagasu is too inconsistent, Flatt is struggling and Wagner doesn't get the scores. (of course, even WITH Czisny in top shape we probably won't get back 3 spots anyway)

[seniorita]

You are assuming Liza has a choice; I assume no such thing. At best we do not know.

I m sorry but you took a hair and made it a sweater, if you suggest she had no opinion for her dresses and her coaches offered her a dress so as to win at any prize as you said, I find this insulting, firstly she doesnt need the dress to win and secondly Mishin is a 70 year old man, some respect wouldnt hurt. If I can tell from documentaries with Plushenko, he was not involved in his costumes either, more so now that he deals with a young teenage girl.

Last, I ve seen in CoR and Euros after the competition in the loby 16-17 year old skaters with super high heels, extra mini skirts, and there, there is no illusion fabric. They put facebook pics (Liza included, that she is not 14 but 15 in three days) posing and with make up, thats the new teen generation, deal with it.

[Layfan]

It wasn't Caro's very best but I did enjoy her very much. Personally I find her quite graceful especially in the last two years. She just looks like a true lady skater. Also, I noticed in this competition how relaxed she looked. Maybe not as much in the long as in the short but compared to years past, she looked confident and like she was having fun. In years past, she would go into jumps with a look on her face that clearly showed she was nervous and didn't think she would land it. And I loved, loved her costume. It showed attitude and was elegant at the same time. Very cool.

I'm sorry for Alissa. I hope she takes some solace in realizing that she scored relatively well in the SP despite her fall - so obviously the judges love her. We'll just have to see how the rest of the season goes for her I guess.

Thrilled that Akiko got the silver!! Hurray! If only she would finally have a totally perfect skate - I wonder what she could do?

[claphappy]

The whole hubbub about Liza's dress reminds me of an incident from high school. A fellow student was making a poster for an Art Club meeting. This girl was a dancer &, as such, found the human body beautiful, especially when in a dance pose of some sort. So, she decided that that's what she would draw for the Art Club poster. The school found the poster highly inappropriate. Now, the main reason why that was is because my high school was way to conservative and uptight. But, the point I'm trying to make is that people who use their body all time and as a means of expression (e.g. skaters), often see what would be sexual to others as completely normal & tame.

[Tinymavy15]

Elizaveta's outfit was really awful!! It made the outfits that Tat gave to Mao seem pretty okay in comparison.

Actually i liked it more than the red...it fit the music better and fit her better I think.

[Rachmaninoff]

...I'd like to add that you're essentially suggesting that because there are creepy evil pedophiles in the world, we should make sure nobody does anything that might set them off. Which is so wrong I don't even know where to start. This is the same type of thinking that leads to women and even little girls being subjected to ridiculous modesty restrictions in many cultures - because men supposedly can't control themselves otherwise.

If Liza wants to wear a tacky dress, that's her business, and at most, her mother's business. She's not the first teenager to wear revealing clothing in public. It's not even nearly as revealing as most swimsuits.

Seriously. Not to mention modesty restrictions don't exactly work in suppressing men's "impure" thoughts anyway. The more women generally cover up, the more every little bit of skin is seen as sexual. (I read in one of Beverley Smith's books that when women started skating they wore long skirts, and it was considered improper for them to do jumps because their skirts would fly up around their knees).

I didn't like the color of Liza's dress and I thought her previous one suited the program better, but I didn't notice anything unusual about it. What was so horrifying? Was the skirt shorter, was it the cut going down the middle? Either way, it's not like a more modest dress is going to change anything. Someone who sexualizes prepubescent girls probably has a good time with more typical figure skating dresses too. I recall some disturbing online comments about Tara Lipinski after she won worlds in that white lace dress with a pretty modest cut, and a pretty 'little girl'-ish overall look. And even if they all started competing in full-body unitards, pedophiles (not the same thing as molesters, since they don't necessarily act on their desires) will still find limitless visual fodder for their fantasies. That's what happens when internet access is the norm. Are we to try to remove all the pics of kids in bathing suits and party dresses and leotards from the internet? Good luck with that. Liza's dress is a drop in the bucket.

[Mrs. P]

Watching Liza's program right now. I am amused at the number of pages the dress has garnered because quite frankly I don't think it's that scandalous, especially considering that she's not wearing it by itself but rather with a lot of illusion fabric backing it. And actually I think it works -- let's face it, Latin dancing comes with some flashy hot outfits. The only thing I would say is maybe she should do it in red?

[R.D.]

Seriously. Not to mention modesty restrictions don't exactly work in suppressing men's "impure" thoughts anyway.

let's just say *some* men's thoughts. I always hated the way certain folks use this term as to lump ALL guys in like that. (Maybe that's not what you meant to do here, but I still wish to make the point)

ETA: I guess I shouldn't be surprised that such discussion came up here (I don't see it anywhere else), since I've been here almost 10 years, long enough to know this board tends to take a rather conservative view on such issues as a whole.

[Rachmaninoff]

let's just say *some* men's thoughts. I always hated the way certain folks use this term as to lump ALL guys in like that. (Maybe that's not what you meant to do here, but I still wish to make the point)

To clarify, I was speaking generally of male attraction to females and the question of whether women should cover themselves up to control it, not saying men in general tend to salivate over childlike 14-year-old figure skaters. (Is that what you thought I was doing? I'm not sure...)

[R.D.]

To clarify, I was speaking generally of male attraction to females and the question of whether women should cover themselves up to control it, not saying men in general tend to salivate over childlike 14-year-old figure skaters. (Is that what you thought I was doing? I'm not sure...)

Well, that can be expanded into girls/women of any age, right? Only SOME men have issues with keeping their "impure thoughts" within, not all men.

This is all a serious departure from the topic at hand, however, and is a fierce debate on its own. I almost feel like it needs its own thread so we can get back to analyzing the SKATING (yes, people, actual *skating* on the ice took place!)

[Rachmaninoff]

Well, that can be expanded into girls/women of any age, right? Only SOME men have issues with keeping their "impure thoughts" within, not all men.

Oh, I get what you mean. I was talking of the thoughts themselves, not the acting upon them, because that's what CARA seemed to be taking issue with: the fact that pedophiles might see her video or something and become aroused. I was pointing out that you can't prevent the thoughts themselves, no matter how modestly women (or girls) dress. Yes, men can still keep them within and choose not to act on them.