GPF Men FP, Sat. 12/10 at 4:55 pm EST

[Olympia]

I have now watched both long programs, Takahashi's and Chan's, and while I understand what people are saying about the quality of Chan's actual skating, I found the many trips and falls distracting and hope he can refine this program before we have to watch it at Worlds. By contrast, Takahashi purely wowed me. There is nothing like this guy out there. His interpretation and originality are stupendous. The aerial spin in his jumps is gorgeous. Whatever medal he wins at Worlds (fingers crossed!), he will always be one of my top favorite skaters ever.

[skatinginbc]

So why is this the only measuring stick that you have been referring to so far? If my memory is correct, you are a Japanese living in Canada, aren't you? Could it be that you are a little upset that Takahashi didn't win, therefore, your emotions have clouded your logic and judgement?

In the same vein, do you feel the "casual fans" that you and Mathman referred to in this thread can tell: 1) Difference between a Quad and a Triple? 2) Which skater has more Tripe-Triple combos? 3) Which skater has better spins/footwork? 4) Which skater has more speed? 5) Which skaters had more jumps in total? I eagerly await how you and Mathman answer to these questions as the self-claimed representatives of "casual fans".

You tickled me. I'm a Chinese by birth, an American by marriage, and a Canadian by choice. I have no emotional attachment to Japan or her people. The bloody history of Sino-Japanese wars that I learned in school and the unapologetic attitude of that nation regarding her massacre of Chinese people were imprinted in my mind during the formative years of my life. Of course, I don't hold hatred against Japanese. Bygone is bygone. The newer generations have nothing to do with the past.

My husband, who watches figure skating only once in a while, cannot tell a 3A from a quad. Neither can he tell if the footwork contains easy toepicks or difficult edges. He doesn't pay attention to speed, which is hard to detect through TV. Even when we watched the competitions live, he never mentioned the word "speed". He doesn't keep track how many jumps a skater has successfully performed but strangely he counts obvious "mistakes" (shaky landing, leaning in the air, stumbles, etc.). When the count exceeds what his impatient memory can hold, he concludes "He is another Sandhu," which means "not a champion material".

Why is "cleanness" the only measuring stick I have been referring to so far? Because it is the main complaint that many posters have made in this thread. Can you find another measuring stick mentioned more often in the opinions that disagreed with the LP result? Again, I was not arguing that it should be the only measuring stick. What I tried to say instead was that it is obviously a measuring stick that many people use, a measuring stick that doesn't demand any skating training and is relatively free of subjectivity.

[let`s talk]

I feel sorry for Takahashi, Hanyu and all other skaters who had/have/will have to face Chan in competitions. The corruption of the men's field became beyond all reasonable grounds and it seems like Chan has no problem with it. Chan ubers lost my last trust because I refuse to understand how they can support and justify his crappy wins over the magnificent skaters and their performances. I don't see any hope for now for my favourite FS segment. I do believe things will be different in Sochi where the presence of Plushenko himself will set the things right, even if he won't medal. Chan never won in Russia with falls. If he wants to win there, he has to skate better than anyone else to earn the gold medal. Until then I am afraid we have to observe what we do now- farce, circus and a comedy that men's field turned out to be.

[jettasian]

For me, Hanyu deserved to win the competition. His Long Program here looked slightly more rushed then in the past, but he still skated beautifully (so much HEART) and this is technically the strongest he has ever been. Only that one mistake on the least important jump element. Since the judges are making him wait his turn, I sure hope he continues to be as interesting and alive in the future as he has been this season.

I would have put Patrick 2nd overall, although 3rd in the LP. I do agree this is the best he has skated his LP all season and, yes, his basic movement across the ice is staggering. However, I still question the quality of his interpretation and the effectiveness of his choreography, and there were of course 3 significant mistakes technically. He is definitely a miraculous skater in some regards, but to make all of the mistakes he did throughout the competition and not be as much of an artistic prodigy as he is technically, and still finish more than 10 points ahead of the rest of the field...ehhh. With proper judging under the current rules I don't feel he should have been declared the winner here, but the rules themselves are at fault too. Skaters getting far too many points for heavily flawed elements. It's too bad that his skating can't just be appreciated for what it is. He is special but he is not Godly across-the-board, as the scores would have you believe.

You fail to point out that Hanyu basically ran out of gas in the last minute of the program. So while you notice that Chan made multiple mistakes, but not Hanyu who's pretty weak at the last part of the program? And as for artistically, again, subjective. I didn't see Hanyu's performance with "so much heart" but Johnny-Weir hands flipping ups and downs and lefts and rights.

[wallylutz]

Why is "cleanness" the only measuring stick I have been referring to so far? Because it is the main complaint that many posters have made in this thread. Can you find another measuring stick mentioned more often in the opinions that disagreed with the LP result? Again, I was not arguing that it should be the only measuring stick. What I tried to say instead was that it is obviously a measuring stick that many people use, a measuring stick that doesn't demand any skating training and is relatively free of subjectivity.

You have a valid point here re: falls being obvious to everyone except that I think going by the reactions of many posters in this thread is like measuring the popularity of a politician based on self-selected online polling. Since you are familiar and functional with stats, I am sure you can appreciate how unreliable this is and therefore, why such argument is very weak.

Figure Skating is not a sport for the obvious. Because to accept such argument, then all jumps shall be equal because clearly, why should a Quad Toe have more value than a Triple Toe then when someone like your husband can't tell the difference, right?

You made a comment earlier about opportunity cost under CoP and found it somewhat unfair. Takahashi's loss yesterday was again a good example of why he was his own biggest enemy. Look at how he took an entire jumping pass to do just the Triple Salchow. He did only one Triple-Triple (vs. Chan who did two) but somehow the people who complained constantly about Chan's single fall completely and conveniently omitted that fact. Although he fell only once, the way it has been described here, you'd think he fell 3 times :sheesh: like the way his original Reuters comment were twisted & exaggerated into something bigger than it was. As a result of doing two 3-3, it gave Chan the chance to do not only two Quads but also include a Double Axel in the 2nd half to Takahashi's lack of Double Axel in his program. The latter is almost another 4 points in BV. So to sum it up, Chan not only did one more Quad than Takahashi, he also had more 3-3 and a Double Axel. The additional 3-3 is a very difficult one utilizing 3S as the 2nd jump with high probability of failure. So clearly, technically, Chan has had a lot of obvious advantage over Takahashi which aren't difficult to see for someone who can follow the 6.0 era figure skating (i.e. recognizing Quad, Triple - Triple and count jumps). None of this is too much to ask. Therefore, one can conclude CoP is merely a scapegoat in the flood of protests - understandably from the same people who have been saying the same thing whenever Chan wins, as opposed to any real concerns about CoP destroying the sport.

That's why I brought up Jason Brown from the Junior Event, to illustrate the obvious hypocrisy rampant in this thread that will make even the loudest whiner about CoP shut up unless they demand Brown's Gold to be revoked. Under 6.0 system, Jason Brown would never have won yesterday's event. Was he the correct winner? Let's just say without CoP's logical although imperfect model, a talent like Brown would never be recognized and he may as well quit skating by now because the lack of Triple Axel at his age in 2011 is just not going to make it.

Finally, Figure Skating isn't the only winter amateur sport that struggles to be marketable but to blame it on CoP is simply misguided. The fact is aside from hockey, Figure Skating is most likely the 2nd most watched and "profitable" winter sport. This hasn't changed with CoP for the last several years. The other winter Olympic sports, including those who determine winners based solely on a clock/timer all struggle financially whenever outside of Olympic year. Many of these athletes have to work 2nd, sometimes a 3rd job to pay for their amateur career.

Your claim earlier that if CoP continues to produce winners that are difficult to comprehend to a larger audience, it will be detrimental to its popularity. It's an often made argument but more likely a myth than reality, like reading in the dark is bad for your eyes. The fact is skating audience is already a niche market to begin with. People often have this unscientific notion that you and Mathman kept repeating over and over that based solely on your personal experience that most skating fans are ignorant who can't tell a Triple from a Double. I got news for you, those people are not "fans", they just happen to watch skating because the TV is on or someone dragged them to an event. Can someone appreciate baseball as a sport without knowing the rules as it has many to remember? Should we use the same low "ignorant casual fans" standard to measure those who watch baseball? Obviously, nope we can't and shouldn't. The reality is the actual skating fans come in all shape & form. In my years of experience at actual competitions, I can tell you the knowledge of skating fans really range from beginner to highly advanced. Some of those old ladies that always show up with Dash Tours are just scary - you might as well put them in the judges' seats and they could do a respectable job. At a major event like Worlds, you will more likely get a wider range in the audience but in specialized events like the GPF, pretty much only above average and advanced people show up except their tag along who happen to be there. So despite what you may think, the audience was well aware what was a Quad and what was Toe Loop jump. By the way, the GPF was sold out yesterday. If there was demise in the popularity of this sport, it certainly isn't supported by available facts.

[Florian]

I'm super-late and I've not read the whole thread yet, but you can't even start to imagine how big is what Javi has just got. I mean, this country has less than ten ice-rinks, no more than 7 skating clubs, etc. Javi is brilliant, and I really hope people (blinded by other sports) in Spain start to notice it.

I agree. I hope he will get the attention he deserves, but I sadly know he won't, although what he does is incomparably harder than what footballers, who get the most attention, do.

[pangtongfan]

I feel sorry for Takahashi, Hanyu and all other skaters who had/have/will have to face Chan in competitions. The corruption of the men's field became beyond all reasonable grounds and it seems like Chan has no problem with it. Chan ubers lost my last trust because I refuse to understand how they can support and justify his crappy wins over the magnificent skaters and their performances. I don't see any hope for now for my favourite FS segment. I do believe things will be different in Sochi where the presence of Plushenko himself will set the things right, even if he won't medal. Chan never won in Russia with falls. If he wants to win there, he has to skate better than anyone else to earn the gold medal. Until then I am afraid we have to observe what we do now- farce, circus and a comedy that men's field turned out to be.

Very well said. I mostly just tune the mens event out until Chan retires anyway, and most others are doing the same. I didnt even watch the mens final, but everyone I knew who saw it said Takahashi in the long program phase was about twice as good as Chan. Watching their performances after on tape after I would have to agree, but no surprise Chan was given the higher score even in the long program phase somehow anyway.

[jettasian]

According to this this article, Chan Grand Prix champion, again, Chan received an apology from the Reuter reporter a couple of days ago. We know the press would never issue an apology unless they have to because they are absolutely wrong.

Did Reuter posted an apology in an article? I'd like to read that.

[jettasian]

And that, essentially, is most people's problem with Chan; he's all ego, no heart. With him, it's all about, "look everyone, see how busy my programs can be and how many tricks I can cram into 4 and a half minutes." His fans are in on the act too with their proclamations about how much more difficult his programs are in comparison to his competitors. Whatever, I don't get any kind of emotional connection with him; he completely sacrifices heart and human connection in exchange for maximum points accumulation and super busy programs. That is why he will never be an Abbott or Takahashi or Savoie or Lambiel or Kozuka and so on. That is also why I believe many do not appreciate him in the way that he wants to be appreciated. Well, that, and the way this judging system constantly rewards him gold medals even when he makes more mistakes than others. Browning connected with the audience on an emotional level with his programs. Chan has a long way to go to learn this trait. JMO.

Oh, I'm sure Chan has a heart, or else what's pumping his blood
I don't think only Chan's fans are appreciated his programs and difficult skates. I think general viewers, or people know skating, will appreciate his difficult programs too. While so-called artistic, is subjective in people's eyes, difficult skate is not.
And you are right, Chan will never be an Abbott, or Dai, or Kozuka or Lambriel, because those guys will never be Chan either. Chan is Chan.

[wallylutz]

I agree. I hope he will get the attention he deserves, but I sadly know he won't, although what he does is incomparably harder than what footballers, who get the most attention, do.

You know, they used to say the same thing about Figure Skating in Korea since Speed Skating is the king. That is, until someone by the name of Yu-Na Kim showed up.

[jettasian]

I feel sorry for Takahashi, Hanyu and all other skaters who had/have/will have to face Chan in competitions. The corruption of the men's field became beyond all reasonable grounds and it seems like Chan has no problem with it. Chan ubers lost my last trust because I refuse to understand how they can support and justify his crappy wins over the magnificent skaters and their performances. I don't see any hope for now for my favourite FS segment. I do believe things will be different in Sochi where the presence of Plushenko himself will set the things right, even if he won't medal. Chan never won in Russia with falls. If he wants to win there, he has to skate better than anyone else to earn the gold medal. Until then I am afraid we have to observe what we do now- farce, circus and a comedy that men's field turned out to be.

I'm sure Chan has the magical power to corrupt the Russians (not that difficult) too, so he can win Sochi gold with 34 falls

[prettykeys]

And congrulations again to Patrick Chan for being the first repeat winner of the GPF under COP, and being only the second man to accomplish the feat besides Plushenko.

YuNa Kim won back-to-back GPF's under CoP, in 2006-2007 and 2007-2008.

[wallylutz]

I'm sure Chan has the magical power to corrupt the Russians (not that difficult) too, so he can win Sochi gold with 34 falls

Presence of Plushenko will set things right? So let me get this right - if one were to believe judging is corrupted beyond recognition, why would His Presence suddenly eliminate all of that? Would all judges suddenly bow and kneel in front of Him and hand Him the Platinum medal? Or would Putin have former KGB agents stalking judges in Sochi? Or perhaps, someone believes Plushenko is in fact a god. If so, I think the poster is simply saying: "Judging is only right if my favorite wins and the one I hate loses." Nothing to see here, moving along.

[SkateFiguring]

I agree. I hope he will get the attention he deserves, but I sadly know he won't, although what he does is incomparably harder than what footballers, who get the most attention, do.

Yes Javi. I'm so sorry he's kind of neglected/overshadowed even in this thread. Hopefully being swamped by girls warms his heart and makes his spirits soar regardless of how much attention he gets or not gets at home. It's an amazing accomplishment for a Spaniard. I hope he's a new hero at home though I have no idea what effect it would have in Spain. It may be more or less ignored, or, I hope, may have some of the Yuna Kim magic and kindle more interest in this beautiful sport. It may not be so magical and may take time for him to keep climbing up the rank in skating and in public awarenessat at home, eventually returning to train and inspire young Spanish skaters, pulling a Yao Bin for Spainish skating.

However his path takes him, he's earned some glory for himself and his country, and the effect can only be positive, whether in quick manifestation or in slow and steady development.

First GPF, first major ISU medal, for himself and for Spain. Felicitación, Javier Fernandez!

[SkateFiguring]

YuNa Kim won back-to-back GPF's under CoP, in 2006-2007 and 2007-2008.

I meant in Men figure skating. Not fair to measure anybody with Yuna!