GPF Men FP, Sat. 12/10 at 4:55 pm EST

[Bluebonnet]

It's getting really late here in Quebec and I actually do need to wake up tomorrow morning. Someone just PM me and asked me about the Junior Men competition today so it reminded me that many of you didn't see it and probably never would bother, including the so called people's representatives because there is no "Rock Star" there that would make any of you upset: "the casual fans whose anger with CoP will kill the sport eventually". I got a newsflash for you to roll over 3 times and be super upset about. The winner of the junior men's event has no Triple Axel or Quad. Now, listen carefully, the winner didn't attempt either a 3A or any Quads but the 5 other junior men all did, including the eventual 2nd place finisher who landed a clean Quad Toe and Triple Axel, along with 7 other Triples. Now, let me tell you the name of the winner: Jason Brown from the United States. Now, I have to ask, all the people who claimed CoP is killing the sport, would you now petition the ISU to have Jason Brown's Gold medal revoked? Because you know, under the definition of "casual fans" that I read here, this too would be scandalous and no, the 2nd place guy didn't fall.

Now, if you wouldn't protest about Jason Brown's Gold medal, who won with no Triple Axel or Quad and the 2nd place guy didn't fall and had clean Quad and Triple Axel, I eagerly await for our casual fans to suddenly become highly informed and educated about figure skating in all its complexity...

Thank you for the info, Wallylutz! But I know they'll ignore this and continue to pick up the same old topic no matter how rational or how many times other people explain them.

According to this this article, Chan Grand Prix champion, again, Chan received an apology from the Reuter reporter a couple of days ago. We know the press would never issue an apology unless they have to because they are absolutely wrong.

Oh, the reuters has apologized to Chan?! That was wonderful! The reuters wanted to shoot a big duck, but they've shot their own foot as well.

I have read enough of this thread to wonder why there's so few attention to why Chan won the free

They don't care.

All they know is that they loved Takahashi's skating dearly, but he didn't win. It's hard to swallow.

[let`s talk]

Presence of Plushenko will set things right? So let me get this right - if one were to believe judging is corrupted beyond recognition, why would His Presence suddenly eliminate all of that? Would all judges suddenly bow and kneel in front of Him and hand Him the Platinum medal? Or would Putin have former KGB agents stalking judges in Sochi? Or perhaps, someone believes Plushenko is in fact a god. If so, I think the poster is simply saying: "Judging is only right if my favorite wins and the one I hate loses." Nothing to see here, moving along.

Why would Putin need former KGB agents to stalk judges if he has FSB at his hand? Judging in FS is all about politics and it's not a great secret that it can be influenced by the location of the event. If you think differently, then you live under the rock. In Chanada Patrick wins no matter what. That's the negative influence of the location. In case of Sochi the fact that the competition takes place in Russia where the beauty of the sport and clean skating is still appreciated, the location will be a positive influence- it may move things from corruption to fair judgement- win the one who skates better than anyone else. I am not sure at all that it will be Plush, but I will be glad if he medals. What I definitely want is to see the rightful and legitimate winner with the beautiful and technically superior skating, not some zamboni who smoothes the ice with his butt multiple times. Enough is enough. That's killing the sport. But for some Chan ubers his idol is always a winner, now became a martyr who suffers from all unfair critics. Yeah, you are right. Nothing new to see here, moving along.

[alexeifan]

Originally Posted by wallylutz
It's getting really late here in Quebec and I actually do need to wake up tomorrow morning. Someone just PM me and asked me about the Junior Men competition today so it reminded me that many of you didn't see it and probably never would bother, including the so called people's representatives because there is no "Rock Star" there that would make any of you upset: "the casual fans whose anger with CoP will kill the sport eventually". I got a newsflash for you to roll over 3 times and be super upset about. The winner of the junior men's event has no Triple Axel or Quad. Now, listen carefully, the winner didn't attempt either a 3A or any Quads but the 5 other junior men all did, including the eventual 2nd place finisher who landed a clean Quad Toe and Triple Axel, along with 7 other Triples. Now, let me tell you the name of the winner: Jason Brown from the United States. Now, I have to ask, all the people who claimed CoP is killing the sport, would you now petition the ISU to have Jason Brown's Gold medal revoked? Because you know, under the definition of "casual fans" that I read here, this too would be scandalous and no, the 2nd place guy didn't fall.

Now, if you wouldn't protest about Jason Brown's Gold medal, who won with no Triple Axel or Quad and the 2nd place guy didn't fall and had clean Quad and Triple Axel, I eagerly await for our casual fans to suddenly become highly informed and educated about figure skating in all its complexity...

Yes but Han Yan won the LP so...

[Medusa]

All they know is that they loved Takahashi's skating dearly, but he didn't win. It's hard to swallow.

So everyone who is not okay with the outcome is automatically uneducated about figure skating and has all rationality just charmed away by Mr. Takahashi - and everyone who is supporting Chan is a well-informed, level-headed "true" figure skating fan? That certainly makes for a simple world order.

[SkateFiguring]

Why would Putin need former KGB agents to stalk judges if he has FSB at his hand? Judging in FS is all about politics and it's not a great secret that it can be influenced by the location of the event. If you think differently, then you live under the rock. In Chanada Patrick wins no matter what.

Chan came in sixth at Skate Canada 2009.

That's the negative influence of the location. In case of Sochi the fact that the competition takes place in Russia where the beauty of the sport and clean skating is still appreciated, the location will be a positive influence- it may move things from corruption to fair judgement- win the one who skates better than anyone else. I am not sure at all that it will be Plush, but I will be glad if he medals. What I definitely want is to see the rightful and legitimate winner with the beautiful and technically superior skating, not some zamboni who smoothes the ice with his butt multiple times. Enough is enough. That's killing the sport. But for some Chan ubers his idol is always a winner, now became a martyr who suffers from all unfair critics. Yeah, you are right. Nothing new to see here, moving along.

How do you explain Patrick Chan winning his Worlds 2011 in Moscow? Since he was not the rightful and legitimate winner with the beautiful and technically superior skating, how did he or the Canadian Federation manage to intimidate the Russians and all the international judges to give him such a decisive win with record smashing scores?

I might have blinked, so tell me, how many times did he smooth the ice with his butt in total there?

[skatinginbc]

Takahashi's loss yesterday was again a good example of why he was his own biggest enemy. Look at how he took an entire jumping pass to do just the Triple Salchow. He only did one Triple-Triple.....

Thanks for your lengthy explanation of TES, but that was never the confusing part. I don't think many people questioned Chan's SS and TR either. It would be more helpful and nice of you if you can explain why Chan's IN deserved a higher score than Di's given the visible mistakes they had.

[os168]

Wow so much hoopla where ever Chan is concerned lol.... well for me it is a clear case of Sport Vs Art, and unfortunately for many: Art lost on the day. The only problem is many people keep watch figure skating is also because of the arts.

I do wish people don't blame Chan too personally though. Chan did the best he could on the day, the rest is really up to the judges. In a way I do feel sorry for him because of his circumstance and environmental factor is something outside his control. The fact the current COP rules clearly cares less about falling/under rotate than encourage quads for the men and triple axels for the women. The problem is this rule/award system is against all the common sense of what one would usually constitute as a 'great performance' - the realization of a perfectly executed program.

With the way the COP tweak things annually means now as long as you have shown decent difficulty, great ability with the past performance/credit to support it. Together with impressions, strong federation support, all the favours are likely to be on your side. Any latency problems are not dealt with properly until way after the medals have been awarded.

One thing about judging I've always wondered. It seems to have been accepted judges and fans use relative scoring to justify point and placements, but it is also true under certain extreme circumstances, there can be over marking take place at certain occasions. So do judges ever get together afterwards to deliberate what should be the correct score and placement? ie/ Re calibration of the score according to field wide average. Or do they only bench mark according to the last over scored mark? Because it would have certainly explain a few things on why certain skaters appear to be favoured.

[ciocio]

Presence of Plushenko will set things right? So let me get this right - if one were to believe judging is corrupted beyond recognition, why would His Presence suddenly eliminate all of that? Would all judges suddenly bow and kneel in front of Him and hand Him the Platinum medal? Or would Putin have former KGB agents stalking judges in Sochi? Or perhaps, someone believes Plushenko is in fact a god. If so, I think the poster is simply saying: "Judging is only right if my favorite wins and the one I hate loses." Nothing to see here, moving along.

Probably you're talking about yourself since you seem so obssesed with KGB conspiracies. How are you so sure he'll use former agents??? Are you a CIA agent investigating this story????

[sigrid]

I agree. I hope he will get the attention he deserves, but I sadly know he won't, although what he does is incomparably harder than what footballers, who get the most attention, do.

It really seems so :( besides he competed at the exact same time that the football match between Real Madrid and Barcelona. The country basically collapses when one of these matches happen, and of course, today everybody is talking about it. Anyway Javier has got some mentions in the news, and I should be happy with that.

However his path takes him, he's earned some glory for himself and his country, and the effect can only be positive, whether in quick manifestation or in slow and steady development.

I agree, really positive indeed. As far as I know, almost everybody in his old rink stayed until 4AM to watch him compete in the short program having to wake up early the next morning and a lot of kids who are going to skating lessons are completely spellbound by Javi and his skating, and want to be like him

[wallylutz]

So everyone who is not okay with the outcome is automatically uneducated about figure skating and has all rationality just charmed away by Mr. Takahashi - and everyone who is supporting Chan is a well-informed, level-headed "true" figure skating fan? That certainly makes for a simple world order.

It would be helpful if those people you mentioned can actually articulate their thought process as opposed to stating their opinion and then immediately accuse the judges of bias and corruption. Or else, how we are supposed to discuss when all we have is claims of: divine intervention, KGB and corruption to contend with? You see, some people pointed to Chan falling on the Lutz (as the determining factor) therefore implying that their complaint was based on the 1st mark but you see them later recant and claim the TES (which is explained by the protocol) has never been the contentious issue but rather the PCS or part of it. So it's a moving target with no consistency to the claim. I think the credibility of the "plaintiffs" suffer greatly when their primary claim keeps changing. But I also suspect they know their claims can't withstand scrutiny when examined rigorously, hence that's why they prefer to keep their complaints vague.

[wallylutz]

It would be more helpful and nice of you if you can explain why Chan's IN deserved a higher score than Di's given the visible mistakes they had.

I don't know who deserved higher IN marks between these two since I didn't take any notes from the event as I was juggling with poutine on my hands. I don't know why you assume I necessarily agree with the panel's average since I don't know it myself. But if you have specific questions re: aspects of the IN that you feel may have been overlooked re: these two skaters, I'd be happy to take a look when I have the time to review the tapes.

[demarinis5]

I am sure that Dai's FS has probably already been posted up thread somewhere, but I will post it again for the folks who don't want search thru this multi page
thread can enjoy.

Dai FS with Eurosport Commentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fffn...el_video_title

[silver.blades]

Just to throw in my 2 cents:

Brezina: His jumps are huge and he has decent ice coverage, but he's not as smooth as some of the other guys which is really clear live. He seems to fight his edges a bit. He needs better material because he has some wonderful movement quality and I had a few flashes of Jefferey Buttle during his long. I actually felt a little bad for him as the audience, while appreciative, was noticeable the least enthusiastic for him.

Jeremy: He has beautiful flow across the ice, nice sweeping edges and a really nice triple axel, the second one didn't go so well last night. On his good jumps he has a very nice, tight, up and down air position. This program is wonderful and suits him to a t. He has really improved his presence since the last time I saw him live and that really helps to smooth the jolt from the falls. There is something that irks me about his posture at times though. I think his shoulders sometimes get a bit too high. And he needs to work on constant extension of the free leg, especially through the toe. When he gets tired or rushed his foot is flexed or limp, which ruins the nice upper body line he has. Otherwise his performance was fabulous. Shame about the falls.

Hanyu: Beautiful jumper, and good speed and flow across the ice with nice edge work. He needs to work on his stamina as he got really, really slow in the second half of the program. He's got nice spins as well and is a solid performer, just needs to increase the difficulty between the elements, but that will come with time.

Fernandez: Great air position on his jumps. He's a great performer and seems to really enjoy himself on the ice, which makes him very enjoyable to watch. He needs to work on his speed, flow and edge work though as he is noticeably slower than some of the other guys live. It kind of feels like he's fighting the edge and his knee rhythm is off which slows him down through his turns.

Dai: I love Dai. He is a fabulous performer, the best one competing right now. However, now that I've seen him live and healthy, I've changed my opinion on his skating skills. He's a solid skater, with decent basics, but he's not a great skater. He seems to work harder to gain speed than Hanyu and Patrick and even Jason Brown and his edges are short and quick and a bit shallow. He really needs to work on his spins as well. His movement quality however, is smooth and refined and absolutely wonderful and his performance and interpretation is the best in the competition by far, except for maybe Jeremy.

Patrick: It is a privilege to watch Patrick skate. His speed and flow, sureness and depth of edge is second to none. He can get speed from nothing and makes it all look so easy. It's mind-boggling to just watch him stroke. He pushes every edge to its absolute maximum and takes it a little to far a little too often. At least he's improving as the season goes on learning were to push and where to hold back. His spins are vastly improved since the last time I saw him live, reasonably fast and centred, although the positions still need some work. His overall line has also improved, but he still needs some more extension through the free foot. It would be nice to see him push his performance and interpretation like he pushes his blade work. It's still a little too safe emotionally.

Overall I agree with the judges. I think Patrick's PCS were a tad too high, but not much. Dai should be a point or so ahead on interpretation, but Patrick should be a point or so ahead on skating skills, so it evens out.

[Tonichelle]

Browning connected with the audience on an emotional level with his programs. Chan has a long way to go to learn this trait. JMO.

his earlier programs I don't get much of an emotional connection, but he is a natural flirt... and he was entertaining with his energy and go get em attitude.

[skatinginbc]

You see, some people pointed to Chan falling on the Lutz (as the determining factor) therefore implying that their complaint was based on the 1st mark but you see them later recant and claim the TES (which is explained by the protocol) has never been the contentious issue but rather the PCS or part of it. So it's a moving target with no consistency to the claim.

I thought I had talked about it in other threads and I mentioned it again in my post #253 of this thread: Doesn't a fall influence Performance and Interpretation as well? Sorry that I assumed you understood my argument and therefore didn't bother to explain it clearly. Please don't be offended. I actually like you as a person and have no intention of offending you with some trivial argument about skating.

Again, in case you haven't figured it out yet, my argument about falls and other observable hiccups has always been about their influence on the 2nd mark, whether in this thread or others.