GPF Men FP, Sat. 12/10 at 4:55 pm EST

[Bluebonnet]

Based on your estimation, I think it's crazy as in mind bottling that a clean skate can score 190 points. The best skate for me so far is Daisuke's 4CC Swan Lake one, that has been my benchmark for "near perfection" for a while @ 175 points. Seeing Chan come close to that mark with his performance on Saturday is just mind bottling me for too. But that's from a spectator point of view, of course you can always argue that I am comparing apples to oranges and it's unfair.

Daisuke's 4CC Swan Lake was his 2007-08 SP. After 2007 Worlds, CoP has gone some dreadful changes to fit for most less athletic skaters who were on the scene at the time. After 2010 Olympics, CoP has gone another significant changes. The maximum score one program could get then was different from the maximum score it could get now. Plus there were some changes in sequences, and spins too. So yes, you are definitely comparing two different program scores from practically two different CoP eras which were incomparable.

I know Takahashi wasn't clean...if he was, would he still beat a clean Chan?

I can say it with confidence: No, no one, as of now, could beat a clean Chan.

I agree. Javier has strong jumps! But after doing 2 quads the poor guy always lacks stamina in the latter half. He’s only 20 y.o. and hasn’t reached his prime yet. Do you think with aging he’ll accumulate more stamina?

If you ask me, I've never heard between age 20 and 25, age could play a role in making any difference in stamina. If you say a 30 year old has less stamina than a 20 year old, I would believe that, as we've observed in tennis. I'd think the training regime could make difference in Javier's case. However, Javier didn't strike me as being lack of stamina. I thought he slowed down his speed in footworks was due to weaker skating skills, not lack of stamina. But I could be wrong.

This I disagree. Do you mean Hanyu should win LP over Javier, but Javier should win the SP and thus should win overall? Did you look at their SP scores?

SP_____TES__PCS:
Javier: 42.19 39.07
Hanyu: 43.26 36.07

Javier lost to Hanyu on TES in both SP and LP, yet was still able to win the GPF event with a big 5.12-point margin on PCS. Hanyu should not have outscored Hanyu by 3 points on PCS in the SP. Hanyu’s skating skills are so much better than Javier’s.

I do. I'd call Hanyu's SP juniorish, even though I think his LP is more mature, maybe it's because of the music he used in LP. I particularly feel that Yuzuru's SP interpretation wasn't as good as Javier's in SP. I've used my old trick to check both Javier and Yuzuru's skating skills. I've concluded that Javier has better skating skills. It seemed that Javier was skating on a sleeky ice, but Yuzuru was skating on a bumpy ice. Javier's accelerating and decelerating was better too.

[let`s talk]

Patrick only competed in Russia twice, so you correct statement doesn't mean much because of the small sample pool. In 2010 COR, Chan lost to Verner by only 3.1 points. He lost not because he fell four times, but because he did four jump combinations in LP which resulted in the last one (2A+3T) invalid. The 2A+3T should have been 2A which is worth 4.3 points (including 1.1 factor and GOE). His PCS was 81.3 in LP in spite of three falls. In comparison, his PCS in LP in SC that year was 84.14 with only one fall. So the judges basically followed the same rules no matter in which country the competition took place.

Alright, you convinced me. No matter how many mistakes Chan makes and how well his opponents are, he will win because the system is designed for that. Then they must give him an OGM right now. How much is the prize money for Olympic Champions in Canada? In Russia it was smth like $50,000 plus some gifts like an apartment, a car, etc. from the government. After the East Japan earthquake Putin said about the Worlds "that is not an expenisve event", Russia hosted it and paid $5 million for that or somesuch. Surely they will be able to make one more graceful gester to FS and pay all expenses for OGM given in advance to Chan. Putin will pay for it, ISU will homologate it, Chan will start making money as a reigning OGM right now and his ubers can enjoy him zamboni-ing the ice with his butt in shows. Everybody's happy! In 2014 they will give the second OGM. The precedent already took place, again thanks to Canadians. But there will be the winner based on competitions, not on corruption. Great idea in fact.

[ciocio]

Too many conspiracies for my taste. If Chan wins, let´s talk will say that judges were corrupted. If Chan doesn´t win, wallyluzt will blame Putin and his KGB (former) agents.
This is crazy!!!

[let`s talk]

If Chan wins, let´s talk will say that judges were corrupted.

You forgot the detail (devil is in the details): with falls. If he wins with falls.

[ciocio]

Oh, ok. I will not forget. But I think wallylutz will be pissed no matter what. He´s waiting for Chan´s coronation for the glory of COP.

[Bluebonnet]

Oh, ok. I will not forget. But I think wallylutz will be pissed no matter what. He´s waiting for Chan´s coronation for the glory of COP.

I can agree that let´s talk will always bring conspiracy theory back. But be reasonable. What did Wallylutz do to earn this reputation?!

[SkateFiguring]

You forgot the detail (devil is in the details): with falls. If he wins with falls.

Let's get the details then:

This season so far, in 7 events there have been four Men winners with falls: Chan, Takahashi, Abbott, and Hanyu.

Last season, let me refer to my compilation before Worlds. I adjusted the stats to include the Worlds' result:

Total Falls - Chan 8/5 comp, Oda 8/5, Takahashi 7/6, and Kozuka 3/6.

Total Wins - Chan 4/5 comp, Kozuka 3/6, Takahashi 3/6.

Total Clean Wins - Chan 3/4, Kozuka 2/3, Takahashi 0/3

Total Wins with Falls - Takahashi 3/3, Kozuka, 1/3, Chan 1/4

Total Falls Pre GPF - Chan 8, Takahashi 2, Oda 2, Kozuka 0

Total Falls GPF and after - Oda 6/3 comp, Takahashi 5/4, Kozuka 3/4, Chan 0/3

Total Medals - Chan 5/5 comp, Kozuka 5/6, Oda 4/5, Takahashi 4/6



Takahashi was the only one without a single clean win last season. This season is not over yet, but Chan is not the only winner with falls. Now why is Patrick Chan the poster boy for winning with falls and blamed for the failure of COP as well as the demise of popularity of figure skating?

[Dodhiyel]

As far as the popularity of figure skating goes, that is not up to the judges. It is up to the audience, most especially the TV audience; and it is their eagerness to watch that attracts sponsor money. Aesthetic value is in the eye of the beholder, and can always be argued. When the taste of the TV audience is radically different, overall, from the taste of the judges, then people do not enjoy watching figure skating. Telling people what they *should* like is an exercise in futility. The present judging system makes it very hard for a single skater to present a free skate that is truly enjoyable to watch but also wins a medal. For some time, I hated watching Chan's free skates, because of the frenetic nature of them. To me, they were supremely un-aesthetic and boring; it felt like work to sit through them. I like what I call "an integrated programme", rather than a mere series of clumsy, meaningless, unmusical gestures. "Whole body" footwork ("steps") leaves me cold; I want to see difficult, graceful work done with the feet, not endless flailing. For me, Chan's programmes have been improving, being less frenetic than formerly, and also, I think he has taken some dance training to give his movements more grace and sense. Figure skating is a lot like ballet and interpretive dance. Done correctly, it can be a dream on ice, or athletically thrilling. Done incorrectly, it can be an embarrassing, colossal bore. We are *all* entitled to our opinions and preferences. While the main thrust of the ISU's leader may be to avoid another kind of embarrassment, the main thrust of the average viewer is to enjoy what they are watching. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

[Bluebonnet]

The commentators on US TV have surely been playing an active role in the demise of figure skating in US. True, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." How do you think if someone stands beside the water and tells anyone who comes near it it's not good to drink from this pond?

[Joesitz]

It's so easy to see this as it is and not with bias. 5 exceedingly good skaters who do not stand our in any system of Judgement. 6.0 or CoP.....just top skaters looking for a win. They all skated in their style, in their tricks, in their speed, in their arm movements, even in their body movements - a good show in any sport. I kind of ignore the SP and judge a skater's tricksT included in the LP.

Gold:Takahashi is not a favorite of mine, but in the contest we are talking about, his style and tricks were the best.
Silver:Fernandez surprised everyone and in his time, he will be a big winner.
Bronze: Brezina did not have a good routine, but who did? He managed to come through, despite his shortness of breath,
Pewter: Chan seemed to be in dreamland. At times he showed us his beautiful stroking, but oh, those Falls.
?????? Abbott: Best blade to ice skater, but he needs consistency.

[Spun Silver]

Let's get the details then:

This season so far, in 7 events there have been four Men winners with falls: Chan, Takahashi, Abbott, and Hanyu.

Last season, let me refer to my compilation before Worlds. I adjusted the stats to include the Worlds' result:

Total Falls - Chan 8/5 comp, Oda 8/5, Takahashi 7/6, and Kozuka 3/6.

Total Wins - Chan 4/5 comp, Kozuka 3/6, Takahashi 3/6.

Total Clean Wins - Chan 3/4, Kozuka 2/3, Takahashi 0/3

Total Wins with Falls - Takahashi 3/3, Kozuka, 1/3, Chan 1/4

Total Falls Pre GPF - Chan 8, Takahashi 2, Oda 2, Kozuka 0

Total Falls GPF and after - Oda 6/3 comp, Takahashi 5/4, Kozuka 3/4, Chan 0/3

Total Medals - Chan 5/5 comp, Kozuka 5/6, Oda 4/5, Takahashi 4/6



Takahashi was the only one without a single clean win last season. This season is not over yet, but Chan is not the only winner with falls. Now why is Patrick Chan the poster boy for winning with falls and blamed for the failure of COP as well as the demise of popularity of figure skating?

Last year Chan quieted the grumbling by skating clean. It was a brilliant season.

This year, who is the only skater to win with falls in both programs, twice (TEB and GPF)? And called falls don't sum up the jump problems. At the GPF, the two-footed quad and the messy 4-2 with hand down in place of 4-3 (moved from opening to second pass) are all visible errors that detract from the impression of a commanding performance.

One other man this year fell twice in the FP and still got gold, Hanyu, and there was some grumbling about that. If he does it again, the grumbling will get louder, and so on. (I'm not predicting he will, it's just an example for comparison.)

Patrick has established a pattern of winning with flawed skates.

[SkateFiguring]

Patrick has established a pattern of winning with flawed skates.

OK, first of all, let's establish that he did not have a pattern of winning with flawed skates last season.

So now you want to claim he has established a pattern of winning with flawed skates from this 1/2 season? From a short busy summer with no time for training, and having competed 2 out of 3 competitions in comprised health and the last and major one with serious malicious distractions and tremendous stress right up to the event? Chan also pushes to the limits from the beginning of the season and likely progresses to an extremely high level of performance as the season progresses. I can almost call it a pattern since he has demonstrated that for at least the previous two seasons.

Let's take the 1 1/2 season to establish a pattern. Chan has had 4/7 wins with falls, and Takahashi has had 4/4 wins with falls. Chan hasn't won this contest yet but he has been the whipping boy the whole time.

You can't win this number game. I expect the bashing to move on to the subjective, about how horrible his style is and his complete lack of artistry, etc.

[Spun Silver]

The season before last is when he established his pattern. Then last season was much better and the grumbling quieted. This season it's looking like he's reverting.

If he builds to clean or almost clean wins at Worlds, then he'll be a fabulous World champion and his critics are quiet again. That will never erase the messy wins along the way, though. And if he wins Worlds the way he did GPF, I'm sorry to say that it will be mainly Canadians who find it exciting.

There are a lot of nationalistic skating fans. They're all tedious IMO. Try detaching your nationalism from your interest in figure skating. It could be refreshing.

[Bluebonnet]

It's so easy to see this as it is and not with bias. 5 exceedingly good skaters who do not stand our in any system of Judgement. 6.0 or CoP.....just top skaters looking for a win. They all skated in their style, in their tricks, in their speed, in their arm movements, even in their body movements - a good show in any sport. I kind of ignore the SP and judge a skater's tricksT included in the LP.

Gold:Takahashi is not a favorite of mine, but in the contest we are talking about, his style and tricks were the best.
Silver:Fernandez surprised everyone and in his time, he will be a big winner.
Bronze: Brezina did not have a good routine, but who did? He managed to come through, despite his shortness of breath,
Pewter: Chan seemed to be in dreamland. At times he showed us his beautiful stroking, but oh, those Falls.
?????? Abbott: Best blade to ice skater, but he needs consistency.

Joe, are you turning into a comedian?

[NorthernDancers]

OK, first of all, let's establish that he did not have a pattern of winning with flawed skates last season.

So now you want to claim he has established a pattern of winning with flawed skates from this 1/2 season? From a short busy summer with no time for training, and having competed 2 out of 3 competitions in comprised health and the last and major one with serious malicious distractions and tremendous stress right up to the event? Chan also pushes to the limits from the beginning of the season and likely progresses to an extremely high level of performance as the season progresses. I can almost call it a pattern since he has demonstrated that for at least the previous two seasons.

Let's take the 1 1/2 season to establish a pattern. Chan has had 4/7 wins with falls, and Takahashi has had 4/4 wins with falls. Chan hasn't won this contest yet but he has been the whipping boy the whole time.

You can't win this number game. I expect the bashing to move on to the subjective, about how horrible his style is and his complete lack of artistry, etc.

SkateFiguring, there is no point in trying to use logic. On logic, the answers are very clear, and this thread would not be 29 pages long. Sad, but true. It's about a group of people on this forum who consistenly want to bash Chan and his skating, regardless of the stats and the logic. It's about not liking COP, while not understanding that their favourite wouldn't have gotten near the podium under the old 6.0. Artistic skaters where not generally rewarded under 6.0. It's about projecting how one thinks COP should work, despite having be explained over and over again how it really works. It's all about emotion and personal preference, and nothing to do with facts and logic. It's the same stuff over and over again after every competition.