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Thread: GPF Men FP, Sat. 12/10 at 4:55 pm EST

  1. #286
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    sorry, of all the complaints about Chan's score, this post takes the cake. So, according to you, since you didn't notice one-foot skating, couldn't tell underrotations or flutzs, those are irrelevant elements in judging; very convincing argument indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    I totally agree. You said it perfectly.
    The fact is, the sport is being won on stuff that the average viewer isn't that impressed by. Patrick Chan can go across the ice on one leg where the others have to switch somewhere in the middle. Those who have skated are very impressed. But you know what? Until it was pointed out to me, I never noticed if a skater switched legs in the middle of his footwork. You know why? It looks good either way. In fact, it might be visually more appealing to switch legs in the middle.

    A skater underrotates. You know what? I can't tell. A flutz? You can't really see it.

    But falls are visible. And when someone who falls wins over someone who doesn't, it doesn't seem fair. Yes, if the faller is doing something never done before, I'd give him a break. But everyone now does the same triples and quads, more or less.
    And to some extent, the results are predetermined. I mean, how much does one vary in skating skills, or transitions, or choreography from event to event? I would think, probably not that much, since you're doing the same program. The jumps were what might change from event to event. But if
    a skater gets such a tremendous lead in non- jump related elements, it's no longer a competition. They can fall or elect not to do the harder jumps, and there's no real penalty.

  2. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    There is no explaining logic when people really don't want to understand.

    I've been reading about 17 pages of these posts on this subject, and I can separate the comments into 2 categories:
    - Patrick Chan did not deserve his marks because he didn't skate clean. He shouldn't win when he falls or makes mistakes. Therefore, the only reason he won is because of politics, bad judging, etc.
    - Patrick Chan didn't have a great night, but he had enough of a buffer from the SP, and the total of what he skated tonight was enough to win. It was significantly below what he would earn if he skated clean.

    For all the people crying foul over Patrick's win, think about this:
    - If only the people who skate clean and perfect win an event, we will have a much simpler competition. There would be no reward for trying harder things, since an error would knock one off the podium. If the goal is clean, don't try hard things. I don't think that's really what you want. It's exciting to watch skaters push the boundaries of the sport. How much angst was there on forums over skaters who have a quad and those who don't? And look how the sport is progressing in terms of overall difficulty. It was on display with so many skaters tonight.
    - COP was designed to reward all sides of skating...technical elements as well as skills and artistry. It's not just a jumping contest. It's also about spins, footwork, and all the in-between skating.
    - The intent of COP is to reward points for what you do. Spins can be worth almost as much or more than jumps. There's a pretty good base value on footwork, as well. You start with a base-value, and depending on how you skate, you get rewarded below, at or above that base value for elements. That's the first mark.
    - The PCS portion is designed to take the elements out of the picture, and judge things like edges, difficulty in choreography, how the program is designed, speed, quality of movement, flow, how a skater moves from one element to the other, etc.

    In looking at the competition tonight, Chan and Takahashi and Hanyu scored almost the same, within 0.54 points, on the technical elements. Hanyu actually scored slightly more than Takahashi on the first mark. That makes sense because Hanyu scored higher on the 4T by about 4 points. He missed the 3S, but that has much lower base value when compared with another of Dai's triples. Dai beats Hanyu by quite a few points on PCS, which is right. When I compare the score sheet with Chan's, I see all sorts of deductions. The one fall earns him -3 GOE across the board. The 4T + 2T combo earns -2's and -3's across the board, even though he didn't actually fall. The wonky 4T earns mostly -2's, a couple -1's, and even a -3. No one is gifting him anything here. The other elements, which were wonderful, earned him positive GOE's, but nothing ridiculous. He has even only two +3's for his circle step. Dai scored more than that. Dai earned a whopping 15.43 points on his 3A + 3T. Dai's 3A also scored more than Chan's. There is nothing out of sorts in the technical score card.

    On the PCS marks, there were only 1.50 points separating Dai and Chan. Dai and Chan are tied on Performance and Execution. The biggest difference between them is on Transitions/Linking Footwork and Choreography/Composition. In those areas, Chan's program earns points on all the extra movements and quality, at a high rate of speed, he puts into Transitions. His choreography is exceptionally complex, and it is well spread throughout the program, not front-loaded or providing many opportunities for a "rest". On the other items, they really aren't that far apart. Chan received some 9.00's, but so did Dai. Chan received a 7.50. There were no 10's in sight. Chan's skating skills and flow and speed, and overall quality of movement is fabulous. And Dai is also judged very close. Really, on PCS, Dai and Chan are the best in the world in my opinion. There is nothing out of sorts on the PCS scoe card.


    So given all this, for those continuing to stubbornly hold on to the idea that there was some great "Chanflation" or mis-carriage of justice, please help me understand because I'm not seeing it. Show me from the scores where Chan was gifted and others were robbed. Show me where there was bias in the judging. Just saying it is so, does not make it so.
    Bravo to you!
    Unfortunately, I think your post will fall on deaf ears. All they see were Chan made more mistakes than others, thus, he did not deserve the score. That's that!

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    casual fans are not seeing programs with CoP glasses. They are using more subjectiveness than the judges in judging skating.
    I wonder if CoP glasses can be blinding sometimes. A poster remarked, "The components marks always seem so close together for a given skater; they should be judged separately." It seems to be arguing that those glasses might blur one's view.
    Cleanness of the performance is an objective measurement. It can be judged even by a casual fan, uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. The CoP glasses dilute such an objective measurement. It makes the fans wonder what color the judges actually see through those glasses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
    If you want to get so personal, let's see who's the fanatic. In this thread, I wrote 3 posts concerning Chan's scores while you had about 10 posts slamming him and his fans. Do haters have more rights?
    That's what I'm wondering too!

    They are starting to use hatred, venomous languages because they are lack of ability in reasoning.
    My very first post here, #246 after more than 10 pages of Chan bashing, expressing my opinions of all skaters, giving each one due respect, and addressing the obssession du jour with data, was met with a personal attack. No, they don't hesitate. Some fans have no rights according to them.

  5. #290
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    Sigh....
    At the end of the day, Chan won, some whined about it. Just another day in the office.

    Anyway, Congrat to Chan for being unbeatable in 2011! All the best for 2012!

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Wait, so it's not okay he won with mistakes. But it's okay others with mistakes?
    Er...no.

    If a skater makes mistakes but still has the best performance of the night, then he should win, whether his name is Patrick Chan or something else. I thought Chan deserved first in the short in spite of his mistakes (I believe I said so in the SP thread). If he'd hit his jumps in the free, I'd have been fine with him winning that segment too because that would have made him undeniably superior that night, regardless of whether he deserved the best PCS all across the board (which was what the post of mine you quoted was actually questioning, not whether someone can have a certain number of mistakes and win).

    I don't think it's the outrage plenty of others here seem to think (the scores between the top two were close after all, and Dai didn't hit a quad either), but I do think it's questionable. And if this is the kind of performance that starts winning major events frequently under CoP, then I'd like to see things change.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Sigh....
    At the end of the day, Chan won, some whined about it. Just another day in the office.

    Anyway, Congrat to Chan for being unbeatable in 2011! All the best for 2012!
    Hear, hear.

    Chan's career is much like his quad combo last night. It is so fast and so huge that he hits the board. Some are amused and some call it bad messy skating, a shame to the sport. He will just continue on doing it fast and huge.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    more than 10 pages of Chan bashing
    I hope mine wasn't counted. I may be "bashing" the judging system, but not Chan. He skated a seasonal best and of course deserved a higher score compared to his previous ones. I think a lot (though not all) of so-called "Chan bashing" is about the system, not him personally.

  9. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    I wonder if CoP glasses can be blinding sometimes. A poster remarked, "The components marks always seem so close together for a given skater; they should be judged separately." It seems to be arguing that those glasses might blur one's view.
    Cleanness of the performance is an objective measurement. It can be judged even by a casual fan, uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. The CoP glasses dilute such an objective measurement. It makes the fans wonder what color the judges actually see through those glasses.
    Today, the casual fan would see that everyone had major errors, and everyone had their own strengths and weaknesses. Cleanness wouldn't have been a possible measuring stick today.

    I would agree there should be more education on TV, online, and basically wherever fans or the public might come across skating as to what is measured and how in both the TES and PCS scores. Canadian TV does a fairly good job of this from time to time. There needs to be much more education. The system is really not that hard to understand. My 10 year old can figure it out really well. I'm a very casual fan of tennis, and there are all sorts of crazy rules in that game around who gets to serve when, how the scores add up, what's in or out, and it doesn't always look logical to me. But I can easily find out the rules if I care to. I don't need people to "dumb down" the sport for me so that I, a very casual fan, might not have to do anything to understand the sport. Same goes for skating. And the commentators can help a great deal by explaining results and performances. It's not that hard. I like to think most people are a little more sophisticated and intelligent to not just look at jumps or whether anyone falls. I think the casual fan will have much more faith and trust in the COP system than the old system. I don't think the loss of interest in skating has anything to do with COP. I think it has to do with the actual judging scandal that only reinforced what people basically already thought was going on, and the amount of money, time and effort involved to participate at an elite level. In Canada, people just go play hockey - boys and girls. Or soccer...It's WAY cheaper. If we want to be treated like a sport, we need to behave like one, with measurable, scorable, verifiable data on performances. COP does that. And I think the inclusion of PCS is important to provide balance to the quality/artistic side of skating. Do we need to define PCS a little more clearly (ie. what constitutes a 7 vs 8 vs 9)? I think so. Do we need transparency in judging? Absolutely. But those things would not change the marks or the placements today.

    That being said, it is exceedingly difficult to comprehend the system if one is still kicking and screaming for the "good old days" of 6.0. Or perhaps when people are annoyed that their favourites don't win and it's easier to blame the system and the judges than look at the reality of the marks. That's the great thing about COP. We actually get to see why one skater was marked higher than another skater.

    I highly recommend people read a post by Dorispulaski on the ice dance results, and a technical breakdown. It's fabulous. There is no question why the marks are what they are after the SD. I may be a Virtue/Moir uber and think they are the best team, and I may feel that Weaver/Poje are consistently robbed, but the marks, element for element, really do tell the tale for the SD yesterday. Davis/White deserved their placement, even if we feel their PCS was a little high. The great thing about COP is that placements are not predetermined. It's what you do on the day.

  10. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post

    I would agree there should be more education on TV, online, and basically wherever fans or the public might come across skating as to what is measured and how in both the TES and PCS scores. Canadian TV does a fairly good job of this from time to time. There needs to be much more education. .
    The sport under CoP has become a joke to the general public. The solution? More education on CoP. LOL. If more education can solve the problem, I'm wondering why Chan is whining about lack of public attention and financial benefits. Some people just need to pull their heads out of the sand.

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    Maybe it's true that we all need to educate ourselves to understand the CoP. But I'm not sure we'll attract new fans (which skating needs) by saying in effect, "You're welcome to come watch skating, but you must bone up on the rules first." People don't get attracted to a sport by being told they don't qualify to be audience members until they fulfill the requirements. Why bother, when hockey is so easy to understand? People skate around, each team guards a goalpost, sometimes the puck gets in. As viewers get more interested, they learn the subtleties. But understanding who wins and why should be the easy part for newbies. I'm just saying.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    Cleanness wouldn't have been a possible measuring stick today.
    Wrong. Even a 10-year-old can tell that Chan fell but Dai did not. Chan also had two messy jumps whereas Dai only had one. It is objective and straightforward. Of course, I'm not arguing it should be the only measuring stick. It is a measuring stick nonetheless.

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Maybe it's true that we all need to educate ourselves to understand the CoP. But I'm not sure we'll attract new fans (which skating needs) by saying in effect, "You're welcome to come watch skating, but you must bone up on the rules first." People don't get attracted to a sport by being told they don't qualify to be audience members until they fulfill the requirements. Why bother, when hockey is so easy to understand? People skate around, each team guards a goalpost, sometimes the puck gets in. As viewers get more interested, they learn the subtleties. But understanding who wins and why should be the easy part for newbies. I'm just saying.
    Ha, don't you know how number obsessed the hockey fans are? Statistics galore being thrown about. Baseball too, right? Enthusiastic fans of all sports educate themselves so they battle other fans and air their intelligence whenever there's an opportunity?

  14. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    The sport under CoP has become a joke to the general public. The solution? More education on CoP. LOL. If more education can solve the problem, I'm wondering why Chan is whining about lack of public attention and financial benefits. Some people just need to pull their heads out of the sand.
    Skating was already on a huge decline under 6.0. The general public, of which I was one at the time, felt that the results were rigged and predetermined, and there was no way to tell why one skater won over another one. The judging scandal in SLC only served to reinforce that idea. See? It's exactly as we always thought. It will take a long time to clear that bad faith with the general public. There clearly has not been enough education generally about COP. I know that the skaters coming through the system now are huge fans of COP over the old ordinals based results. They get to see what they have to work on and improve. It is very clear to them. Commentators don't have to say much to educate the public on this. We already have vignettes during coverage that shows what different elements are. It wouldn't be hard to add how they are scored.

    In Canada, there are all sorts of reasons why skating is not as popular as it used to be:
    - huge popularity of hockey for boys and girls - it's a team sport, instead of primarily an individual one
    - the cost of the sport, which means only the rich or supremely sacrificial get involved, which reinforces the idea that skating is elitest
    - lack of funding opportunities for developing athletes
    - lack of seeing figure skating as a real sport, but more like a beauty contest (see comment above regarding the old 6.0 system)
    - lack of good PR and marketing in the places that matter to the general public
    - lack of airtime on TV news broadcasts - in my town which has big name recognition for skating, we are lucky if our stars even get any mention at all, but every little league hockey, baseball and high school basketball team will be mentioned
    - high cost of skating shows like SOI (sorry, the average person cannot afford to go)
    - stereotypes about the sport, especially for boys who get involved; there are still boys who get beaten up at school if their class-mates find out they are figure skaters
    - insular focus, instead of reaching out to the broader, non-skating community

    Perhaps not coincidentally, Battle of the Blades has done wonders for the appeal and acceptance of skating in Canada. That, and former skaters like Jeff Skinner who are now hockey stars and remember what skating did for them.

    And I could probably find many more reasons. I don't think COP is the reason. Sorry. If people think that COP is subjective, they should visit the old system for awhile. Been there, done that, and it was proven to be way too subjective and open to fraud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Maybe it's true that we all need to educate ourselves to understand the CoP. .
    No, we don't. Corrupt dictators always want to convince their citizens to submit to their authority in order to justify the injustice. We need rebellion, not submission. I'm so glad the causual fans are abandoning this sport en masse. I'm convinced eventually FS/ISU has to make dramatic change to survive. Money talks.

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