I don't know. Honestly, I think V/M are in between a rock and a hard place here.
Anyway, saw W/P's dance. I cannot believe the improvement they made this year.
I wonder if Russia's gonna lose that third spot for 2013 Worlds. C/L can beat I/K and R/T (have this season) and B/S can't crack the top five, they might just miss that magic number.
Excellent job by both. I think D/W deserved to win, but V/M were very close. This is a nice rivalry.
Last edited by MrScroogeMcDuck; 12-11-2011 at 06:39 PM.
Say it out loud, Scott! This is exactly all the fans think for a long while! NO matter you win or lose, you are the champion! Damn the politics and damn the chosen one!
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
The exits from the lifts of V&M were not smooth. A little awkward. Like they lack polish. I guess that could have cost them in GOE.
Do you think V&M may change their choreography to fit 4 lifts?
I am not sure they would be up for that ...
Rooting for the divas with Kwanford
Hmm. Personally I think it's tacky to complain in public. Especially when you lost to your friends and training mates, and you fell in the SP.
Trouble in paradise. Wish I could have been at the press conference. According to Lynn Rutherford at Icenetwork, Charlie said, "If I have to spin until I lift off the ice (in the rotational lift) then that's what I will do." This was in reference to his goal of getting all +3 GOEs. I think they did get all +3 GOEs for the ballerina rotational lift. Then we hear of Moir's expletive over losing the FD on the PC scores. It will be an interesting rest of the season.
I like rivalries more when there is some tension and a bit of a grudge, even if they are friends.
To me it's not a complain, it's the truth! And they have held it back at last year WC. Enough s enough. Maybe Scott should play the game and avoid provoking the judges. But Scott is who he is, a guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, a guy who roars after winning his OGM, a guy who dare to call it out! I'm pround!
Originally Posted by Spun Silver
No, it's called arrogance and poor sportsmanship.
Originally Posted by apple123
12-11-2011, 07:04 PM
.... You know, I recall in the run-up to the Olympic Games Scott was asked how it was training alongisde a rival and Scott said something along the lines of it's great - "training alongside the second best team in the world" (I might be paraphrasing, but he specifically said second best team in the world). So Scott's never one to really mince words about how he feels about his ability and where he feels he and Tessa are in the pantheon. It bugged me more then (specifically, why did he have to say second best. Wouldn't it have been classier to say "one of the best"). I do think that the five point gap was too much to bridge, obviously, but it's clearly the PCS-loss in the FD that bugs him. And doris' comment helps if you want to go all conspiracy.
Originally Posted by Spun Silver
One thing I will say is that the stuff that D/W should win in - Linking Footwork/Movement - is the biggest componenet after factoring (1.75).
They did, and it was definitely deserved. The rotational lift is probably my favourite element from these two ever. It's one of those lifts where you go "How? What? How?"
Originally Posted by KKonas
12-11-2011, 07:11 PM
Honestly, skating fans can't have it both ways. Either this is a sport or it's not. Are V/M great champions? Obviously and terrific innovators for ice dance. Are they the most natural movers and performers in the event? Very likely. Are they entitled to win by default as a result of that greatness? Absolutely not. Cheer for your faves till the cows come home, but the actual competition must be judged with an unjaundiced eye. What is done on the day is what counts, not reputation. At least if this is to be a real sport. Please learn to issue some sort of constructive criticism which observes actual facts in the competition at hand rather than devolving into unquestioning fandom. It waters down any substantive arguments that you make.
Originally Posted by apple123
Scott is entitled to think that he and Tess are the best both technically and artistically. They have earned the right to be that self-confident. But remeber he is also speaking from an emotional place and with lots of adrenaline still coursing through his veins and while having his feelings validated by partial fans and media figures. As outside observers, we should exercise more sober judgment (which is what the actual judges are doing). Using one narrow assessment of what is artistic would be a disservice to the other teams. They can't all be Tessa and Scott, nor should they try. They should be the very best version of themselves they can be. Similarly, the programs should show off the very best qualities of the skaters performing them. Meryl and Charlie are bubbly people with energy and joy bursting out of them when they skate. This program channels that perfectly. V/M's greatest strength lies in their on ice connection and their portrayal of romantic moods. This programis more playful and coy than romantic. That may account for the slightly lower PCS they are getting relative to D/W. (Although I would hardly call 9 10s poor marks.)
In all honestly, Scott is venting obvious frustration. It's perfectly natural. Look an any great rivalry and you will see one half express similar irritation. Federer routinely does when he gets passed by a younger rival (1st Nadal, then Djokovic and lately Murray). He makes the same sort of subtle and more blatant digs Scott is famous for delivering. Evert actually distanced herself from Navratilova once Martina began maximizing her talent. (Things actually got somewhat frosty between them once Martina became number one after years of Chris being relatively unchallenged.) They were a very successful doubles team for several years in the 70s. Then Chris dropped her and stopped practicing with her for a time. In skating, a very similar circumstance existed in the late 80s and early 90s in the Dubova camp. She coached K/P, U/Z and G/P together for a few years. They even went 1-2-5 at 1990 Worlds. K/P eventually got frustrated on two fronts. First they were losing ground to the Ducheynays outside Russia and second they felt Dubova favored U/Z over them. They felt she was holding them back intentionally. True or not, the loss of their world title in 1991 and even cries that they should have been behind their training mates was the last straw They were barely speaking to Dubova by that time despite being their official coach. They left her and eventually moved to Tarasova who showered them with her usual ego boosting attentions. The result of feeling freed from all the tension was their magical season in 1992. BTW, Dubova's camp was drama central for years, what with all the bed hopping and infighting that went on.
What Scott is expressing is what many observers have expected would happen eventually if D/W came up to challenge them consistently. B/A left Canton after 2008 Worlds b/c the writing was on the wall. They knew they needed more attention to just them and to get out of the super intense Canton camp (though they ironically ended up training with another rival). Sometimes a change in venue or perspective is what is most needed. It's pretty normal to make such changes or to lash out when threatened.
ETA: Clearly rivals of this caliber can see past their competitive differences to maintain a friendship, which can even be enhanced by such competition. Evert and Navratilova certainly have. So have Borg and McEnroe and even McEnroe and Connors. Belbin and White had perhaps the trickiest job in that she left their coaches to train elsewhere but maintained ties to Detroit, eventually dating Charlie. She then had to deal with the frustration of being passed by her own boyfriend during her final season while also maintaining her relationship on a healthy level. (check out her facial expression and read her lips in the fall of 2009 when getting GP marks that are consistently behind D/W and V/W; not a happy camper) Yet by 2010 Worlds when she called the event, it was clear she has come to terms with the reality. Happily they are still together.
Last edited by jcoates; 12-11-2011 at 07:42 PM.
12-11-2011, 07:53 PM
No its telling it like it is
12-11-2011, 08:01 PM
I like D/W but I prefer V/M.
That said, I love W/P free dance, every time I watch it it gets better.
And I am very glad they finally started to move ahead. They were third Canadian pair for some time and they were frustrated about it. Now they could show everybody that they are good, as good as anybody else.
12-11-2011, 08:03 PM
Give me a break. What a bitter whiny comment.
Originally Posted by apple123
they had a FALL in the SD....no way he deserved to win and he makes himself a joke to pretend otherwise.
Last edited by Wafflecakes; 12-11-2011 at 08:08 PM.
12-11-2011, 08:09 PM
A very good evaluation of the situation, jcoates, with some apt parallels in other sports. I remember the Dubova situation in the early 1990s, and it made such a difference that Klimova and Ponomarenko just got the heck out. I think it gave everyone room to breathe, not just Marina and Sergei. (One of my favorite ice dancing couples ever!)
Just because Scott seems brusque now doesn't mean that the gloves are coming off. They may have been truly easygoing and friendly earlier, but now as you say V/M feel threatened. It's hard when Olympic champions continue skating, because they feel that they should always be at the top of the heap, but other skaters may be ready to challenge them.
In tennis the stakes aren't quite as high, because there's no one lifetime championship. Nobody expects the same player to win Wimbledon every year, but when an OGM-winning skater doesn't continue to win everything in sight, it seems as though his/her excellence is diminishing somehow. Witness YuNa over in ladies' singles. this isn't necessarily true, of course, but it can make for an uncomfortable situation. No skater's ego is that solid! (Except for Plushy's, of course, which is one of the many things that makes him so refreshing.)
In any other situation, the logical next step would be for one of the two couples to find another coach. But who'd want to leave Shpilband and Zoueva? So I hope all of them can smooth their feathers down and continue to skate at the top of their game. It's pure candy for us fans to have two such stupendous couples, but I hope they all continue to get complete creative satisfaction out of things as well.
Last edited by Olympia; 12-11-2011 at 08:11 PM.