Why the Short Program?

[Rachmaninoff]

I'm wondering why the short program still exists? I enjoy them - more skating to watch, I'd miss them if they were gone! But most casual fans don't see them, and then they don't really understand why skater x won even though skater y had more points in the free skate.

I believe SP were once more controlled on the tech side so judges in were looking at apple and apple instead of apples and oranges. Now I'd say the SP and FS are measuring mostly the same skills, the only difference being length.

Without a SP competitions would be cheaper to run, average fans would see the whole competition and maybe LP would be cleaner (less tired skaters)

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the fact that there are two segments to the competition, the points are added up, and so winning the second one doesn't guarantee the highest point total. There are plenty of things casual viewers don't get about the sport, but that shouldn't be one of them.

I rather like having one segment with a more limited number of elements that gives more room for choreography, etc.

On the topic of element competitions, they tried a jump competition for top skaters before, but it never caught on.

[Mathman]

I could live with that. As long as we're fantasizing, how should we divide up the requirements?

Could we just keep the requirements pretty much the same as they are now? Three jumping passes, two spins, one or two spirals, one or two footworks? The scoring would be set up in such a way as to "expect" the skaters to do three different jumps in each of the two programs. Not necessarily, but strongly favored in the scoring system.

Or -- one of the programs might give extra rewards to the "small jump sequence" , split jumps, weird wally+bunny hop combinations, and also to moves in the field like ina bauers, spread eagles, Charlottes, etc.

In fact, the more I think about it, the two programs could be called the short technical program and the short free program.

[Dragonlady]

On that topic, it seems unfair to me that a gymnast can get two, three, even six or seven medals at one Olympics but that it all comes down to one medal for skaters. I think we should establish medals for the short program, and that they should be given retroactively. Let's hear it for Brian Orser and Michelle Kwan, Olympic gold medalists!

They do give out medals for the short program at Worlds. It's smaller than the overall championship medal but they do give them.

[gkelly]

Could we just keep the requirements pretty much the same as they are now? Three jumping passes, two spins, one or two spirals, one or two footworks? The scoring would be set up in such a way as to "expect" the skaters to do three different jumps in each of the two programs. Not necessarily, but strongly favored in the scoring system.

So both programs would have the same requirements (as the current short program) but skaters would be expected to show different skills in each?

Just for fun, I came up with a couple of options.

Least restrictive:
Every skater gets 14 elements to spread across two 3-minute programs:
6-8 jump passes (may include one small-jump sequence with levels)
3-5 spins
1-2 step sequences
1-2 miscellaneous (spiral sequence, field moves sequence, school figures variation)

Basically the limits and requirements are the same as in the current long program, with a few extra elements allowed, and they can be spread across the two programs any way the skater chooses. The tech panel would keep track of what was done in the first program and consider those slots already filled so skaters would have to show different skills in the second program.

The most unbalanced approach would be to put all the jumps and spins in one program and include only the sequences and uncaptured pure skating in the other program. That would be allowed and could be a valid strategy if planned intelligently with the music and choreography for each program. Most skaters would probably opt for 4 jumps, 2 spins, and 1 sequence in each program or differ from that by only 1 element.

Most restrictive:
Both programs would be technical programs, and shorter than the current long program, with required elements that would force every skater to show a good balance of technical skills expected of senior-level skaters. Maybe the rules specify which elements must go in program 1 and which in program 2, or maybe the skater just has a list of required elements that must be spread across the two programs in a template like 4 jumps, 2 spins, 1 sequence per program but the exact distribution is the skater's choice.

*Solo axel jump (double or triple)
*Solo lutz (double, triple, or quad)
*Solo salchow or loop jump immediately preceded by steps or other connecting moves (double, triple, or quad)
*Solo toe loop or flip jump immediately preceded by steps or other connecting moves (double, triple, or quad)
*Any other solo jump not one of the above
*Jump combination consisting of any two jumps of 2 or more revolutions
*Another jump combination of any two or three jumps, at least one of which must be triple
*Sequence of 3 or more jumps of no more than 2 revolutions each, or may include one double axel or one triple not already executed, with no more than one step or turn between jumps, level features to be determined
(Zayak rule applies to repeated triples and quads)

*Forward camel or layback spin, no change of foot, no catch-foot positions but other features allowed
*Spin with all 3 basic positions (may fly, may change feet)
*Spin with backward entry (may change feet and/or position)
*Spin with flying entry (may change feet and/or position)
(no 2 spins may have the same code)

*Step sequence, which must meet the requirements for “simple variety of steps and turns” (if not, the tech panel will flag it and judges must give negative GOE; if yes and there’s also at least one other feature, then it will earn a higher level)

*Field Moves sequence which must include at least 1 spiral with the free leg at hip height or above; may include other spirals and/or choice of spread eagle, Ina Bauer, shoot-the-duck/hydroblading positions; features to be determined

Or -- one of the programs might give extra rewards to the "small jump sequence" , split jumps, weird wally+bunny hop combinations, and also to moves in the field like ina bauers, spread eagles, Charlottes, etc.

In fact, the more I think about it, the two programs could be called the short technical program and the short free program.

So maybe the short technical program (STP) would be similar to the SP in the 1980s, or to the current junior SP, with specified elements that rotate each year.

And the short free program (SFP) could be ~3 minutes, maximum 8 or maybe 9 elements, which could be exactly the same elements as in the tech program plus an extra, or completely different elements, or some repeats and some new. The Scale of Values would list all the possible elements that gain points, SFP rules would put caps of maybe 5 jump elements, 3 jump combos, 2 repeated jumps, 3 spins (each with different codes), but otherwise the skater could mix and match at will.

That wouldn't allow any way to penalize skaters for repeating the exact same content in both programs or reward them for showing variety across programs, though.

And if you want variety between programs in music and choreo style, how would that be enforced or encouraged?

[skateluvr]

They do give out medals for the short program at Worlds. It's smaller than the overall championship medal but they do give them.

you must be kidding! i never evr saw a medal ceremony for the short program! I actually learned something new today that should be obviously known to skate fans of years! This is amazing! Why only at worlds? Figureskating needs a total overhaul. You ubers need to tell whoever that the whole thing should be scrapped and this board of fans/skaters/scoring experts could come up with the best system for the sport. maybe GS could have a competition called The new improved IJS and start with beginners through seniors. Overhaul everything. I could never begin to do it but clearly there are people who could. The skaters and the sport and the artistry must be evaluated, but it should be simplified so the fans get the whole thing without consulting manuals.

It could be called the GS Project and begun immediately after Worlds, or the last ISU event of 2012. There seem to be a lot of learned folks here with time to devote. Perhaps we could submit names for the committee or just take position papers from individual posters. Then people could comment in sections. Someone needs to save the sport and why not GS? Do-able and interesting and exciting! Imagine a polished piece being presented to the ISU by the GS owner. All the bitching, all the ideas channeled into constructive action.

Why not? As MK used to say....too crazy?

[Becki]

you must be kidding! i never evr saw a medal ceremony for the short program! I actually learned something new today that should be obviously known to skate fans of years! This is amazing! Why only at worlds? Figureskating needs a total overhaul. You ubers need to tell whoever that the whole thing should be scrapped and this board of fans/skaters/scoring experts could come up with the best system for the sport. maybe GS could have a competition called The new improved IJS and start with beginners through seniors. Overhaul everything. I could never begin to do it but clearly there are people who could. The skaters and the sport and the artistry must be evaluated, but it should be simplified so the fans get the whole thing without consulting manuals.

It could be called the GS Project and begun immediately after Worlds, or the last ISU event of 2012. There seem to be a lot of learned folks here with time to devote. Perhaps we could submit names for the committee or just take position papers from individual posters. Then people could comment in sections. Someone needs to save the sport and why not GS? Do-able and interesting and exciting! Imagine a polished piece being presented to the ISU by the GS owner. All the bitching, all the ideas channeled into constructive action.

Why not? As MK used to say....too crazy?

It's called the Small Medal Ceremony, they give it out at ISU Championships, i.e. Worlds, 4CC

[Mathman]

So both programs would have the same requirements (as the current short program) but skaters would be expected to show different skills in each?

Just for fun, I came up with a couple of options....

Of these two extremes, I think the second is better.

My first thought was that if we want to "encourage" skaters to do a variety of different things it would be enough just to tell the judges, give higher scores to those who do. I guess that is naive. We would have to spell things out in as great detail as the current system.

The object could be raised that too many requirements will result in programs that are all alike, but I don't think so. Skaters (in this fantasy world) would strive to out-do one another in choreographic innovation, within the rules.

Ideally, the musical choices should be very different, but still fit together somehow. Lori Nicole always had that thought in mind in choreographing for Michelle Kwan and also for Sale and Pelletier. Sometimes the connection would be too subtle to grasp unless you ask Lori what it is, but still...

Michelle's 2006 Olympic programs, I believe, were supposed to be Dance of Death (a frenetic piece about skeletons coming to life and dancing around -- only Michelle's take on frantically dancing skeletons was supposed to be a hip young girl bar-hopping) -- and then the Prelude in C minor was intended to represent a young woman looking at pictures of death in an art gallery. Something like that. So a kind of life defies death, life contemplates death sort of thing.

I think they would have to give out program notes.

Maybe this could be "enforced" by having the skaters submit their musical conceptions to a refereeing panel at the start of the season, or something. (Give a pre-season gold medal to the best idea. ) At the lower levels, it wouldn't be enforced at all, but would still be the ideal that coaches and choreographers should pursue.

[Mathman]

Figureskating needs a total overhaul. You ubers need to tell whoever that the whole thing should be scrapped and this board of fans/skaters/scoring experts could come up with the best system for the sport. maybe GS could have a competition called The new improved IJS and start with beginners through seniors...

GS member Blades of Passion has the most detailed plan for an overhaul of the scoring rules. GKelly is brimming with ideas, especially if we really wanted to take on the full range from beginners to Olympians. (That is one place where ideas often founder. They sound good on paper for elite competitions but would not work at all at lower levels.)

A couple of years ago there was an intentional group of skating officials and coaches who got together and came up with an intriguing proposal. GSRossano was involved with this project, and I think the deliberations are still accessible on his web site.

The main revision in the scoring of jumps was based on the assumption that the difficulty of the jump goes up exponentially as you add revolutions. So if a single toe loop is worth 0.5 points, and a double is worth 1.5 (three times as much), then a triple should be worth 4.5 points and a quad 13.5.

They also had a proposal for how to deal with flutzes (they later backed off a little from the original bold proposal). Instead of monkeying around trying to decide how much partial credit to give for a Lutz that wasn't really a Lutz but a flip with a weird entry, just eliminate the flip and the Lutz as two separate jumps altogether. There would just be one category of jump and you could do it off either edge. Voila, problem solved.

[derplutz]

The main revision in the scoring of jumps was based on the assumption that the difficulty of the jump goes up exponentially as you add revolutions. So if a single toe loop is worth 0.5 points, and a double is worth 1.5 (three times as much), then a triple should be worth 4.5 points and a quad 13.5.

i like the general idea of exponential. rewards risk. obviously you'd have to fine tune some things and it would end up not being exactly exponential, but its a good starting point.

a few other things i feel:
-multiply the base value of the second/third jumps in a combination or series by a factor slightly greater than 1... 1.1 maybe. it just makes sense... if i see a great triple triple, to me, that's worth more than two triples individually
-in pairs, make the side by side jumps worth much more. two people executing a jump should not score the same as what it does in singles.

[Nadine]

I'm wondering why the short program still exists? I enjoy them - more skating to watch, I'd miss them if they were gone! But most casual fans don't see them, and then they don't really understand why skater x won even though skater y had more points in the free skate.

I believe SP were once more controlled on the tech side so judges in were looking at apple and apple instead of apples and oranges. Now I'd say the SP and FS are measuring mostly the same skills, the only difference being length.

Without a SP competitions would be cheaper to run, average fans would see the whole competition and maybe LP would be cleaner (less tired skaters)

I've been seriously thinking about this thread since you started it, ivy.

And my solution: totally eliminate ice dance, which isn't a sport, and has only been contested at the Olympics since 1976. Let them become ballroom dancers, which they are trying to emulate on ice, but will never be the real thing. Most importantly it will save a ton of money, which could be better used for the other two long-standing disciplines -- singles and pairs.

However, for those that enjoy skating without jumps nor tricks, I say make the SP totally without jumps/tricks (which can replace ice dance), whereas the LP would stay the same. Thereby both sides are happy.

Just a suggestion, especially in light of the money constraints here in the USA when it comes to figure skating.

It seems the powers that be keep shortening ice dance as is anyhow, with mayhap a plan to eliminate it all together? One can only hope so, especially from this admittedly non-fan.

Also, who knows, the new Team Event may eventually replace the relatively new ice dance event. We shall see...

[mousepotato]

you must be kidding! i never evr saw a medal ceremony for the short program! I actually learned something new today that should be obviously known to skate fans of years! This is amazing! Why only at worlds?

It's called the Small Medal Ceremony, they give it out at ISU Championships, i.e. Worlds, 4CC

Becki is correct, the small medals are given out at all ISU Championships but I have known other competitions it do it at their own discretion.

Here is the small medal ceremony from Worlds 2010 for pairs, it took place after the press conference. And the one for the long program which took place outside. The boxes they are given are the cases for the medals, you can see them clearly in the SP one. The podium medals are not really that small but they are not as obnoxiously big like Olympic medals and the small ones are 1/4 smaller. If I remember correctly they have remained unchanged since their inception including the wording on the front in Latin, sorry I can remember it offhand.

[dorispulaski]

If you check out the poll on what events our fans like, they like first men, and then dance. In the 6.0 days, ladies was the premier event here in the US. If it were my choice, we'd get rid of the ladies, which since COP has become hugely boring to me.

Consistently, over time, the least popular event has been pairs.