Who can hold technical callers accountable?

skateflower · Dec 14, 2011

The latest interview with Volosozhar/Trankov caught my eyes.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=80192&page=40

MT: The SBS jumps we could have done sharper, - added Maksim. Perhaps this is what caused the .18 margine. Sometimes I don't understand why do we loose points. It makes no sense. for example we received level 3 for the death spiral in both of our programmes. I don't get it how this element can be of a 3rd level at all. Either it's the 4th, when all is done well or it's the 2nd when the last revolution is not completed. The downgrade goes for the underotation and the arm change at the same time.

EV: You can ask the specialist who decides on the levels/
MT: And we do all the time. But I still don't get it. Lets take another example: we did our combination spin flawlessly in the SP. We watched it in the slow motion and made sure. Received level 1. In the LP we didn't hold the last position till the end, didn't complete the number of turns after the last legs change. And received level4. How on earth do you explain that? I'm quite lost.

This is another slap on the face of the arm chair CoP defenders here. Are V/T are less knowlegable than you? The technical callers are insane, corrupt and stupid. Nobody can hold them accountable. Yeah, the CoP is truly 'objective' ...
:laugh:

gkelly · Dec 14, 2011

I'm not sure how you get from "sometimes make incorrect calls" to "insane, corrupt and stupid." Wishful thinking?

ImaginaryPogue · Dec 14, 2011

skateflower said:
The latest interview with Volosozhar/Trankov caught my eyes.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=80192&page=40

This is another slap on the face of the arm chair CoP defenders here. Are V/T are less knowlegable than you? The technical callers are insane, corrupt and stupid. Nobody can hold them accountable. Yeah, the CoP is truly 'objective' ...

..... Just wanted to quote this.

mousepotato · Dec 15, 2011

Maybe it's just Trankov who doesn't 'get it'

He needs to have his coach handle it if they are confused, not spout off in an interview just because he doesn't understand. In understand frustration but there is a big difference between an element being called wrong and a skater who probably isn't familiar with the rules.

Violet Bliss · Dec 15, 2011

mousepotato said:
Maybe it's just Trankov who doesn't 'get it'

He needs to have his coach handle it if they are confused, not spout off in an interview just because he doesn't understand. In understand frustration but there is a big difference between an element being called wrong and a skater who probably isn't familiar with the rules.

Exactly.

In tech calling, the devil is in the details. I am surprised to hear him say an element is either a level 4 or a level 2 and can't be something in between, like 3? He might have been given the benefit of the doubt.

If "they" ask the tech panel for explanations all the times and he still doesn't get it, maybe he should let the rest of the team explain it to him.

eta. I really like Russian interviews in general, not just with Russian skaters. So much more in depth with lots of good questions and follow up, probing for the kind of information we also like to know. A contrast with many write ups where the writers are more interested in their own opinions, and ask only predecided, often leading and agenda loaded, questions, with no attempt to understand the subjects.

Bluebonnet · Dec 15, 2011

mousepotato said:
Maybe it's just Trankov who doesn't 'get it'.

That's what I thought. Some skaters don't actually completely understand CoP. Their coaches understand it more.

gkelly · Dec 15, 2011

Without familiarizing myself more with the pairs level rules and looking carefully at the videos of the elements in question, I can't know exactly what the problem was with these calls.

As I understand his first complaint, if they switch hands in the death spiral and hold a full revolution after the switch, they get credit for two features (extra revolution and change of hold). If they don't hold the full revolution, they lose both those features, so then the element should be level 2 instead of level 4.

So I think it's likely that the tech panel made a mistake here. It's also possible that the tech panel did give credit for both those features and not for one of the other two features that would contribute to the level 4.

For the second example, again, I'd have to look at the videos, but my guess is that the number of revolutions was borderline and the tech panel may have counted differently than he did, especially if they were looking at a video taken from a different angle.

These would be honest mistakes by the tech panel if indeed they were mistakes. There's nothing in what Trankov said from which to draw the conclusion that the tech specialists and controller were insane, corrupt, or stupid.

If you want to know the official procedures for holding the tech panel officials accountable, see pp. 75 and following of the ISU rulebook.

What's not clear to me is whether there's a process for competitors (or their coaches or federation representatives) to initiate the process if they're the ones who find a pattern of errors. Can they simply report the errors to the referee or to the assessment commission or someone, and then if enough reports on the same officials are gathered the commission will start an investigation?

dancemaster · Dec 15, 2011

What's not clear to me is whether there's a process for competitors (or their coaches or federation representatives) to initiate the process if they're the ones who find a pattern of errors. Can they simply report the errors to the referee or to the assessment commission or someone, and then if enough reports on the same officials are gathered the commission will start an investigation?

federation representatives can initiate the process after paying a fee with in a short time window

gmyers · Dec 15, 2011

6.0 was right judges should go back to both determining progran worth and technical worth

dorispulaski · Dec 15, 2011

Here's their SP-they run their death spiral into their Pair Spin. Where you call the transition point between the two would probably determine the call. For me, Volosozhar doesn't get her feet under her right away, so it's not clear to me at all where I'd call the start of the pair spin.

Maybe the tech callers had the same problem. Since it wasn't Max with the problem, he might not even know; the curse of the team sport.
The clip should start at the start of the death spiral. You call the end of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP-TJ1osHJ0#t=2m58s

Their pair spins are particularly weak, IMO. They should go to the dancers to learn how to do one and keep it centered without travelling around.

gkelly · Dec 15, 2011

Thanks, dorispulaski.

Here are the features for death spirals:

1) Difficult entry (immediately preceding the death spiral) and/or exit
2) Change of man’s pivot position (not for SP)
3) Change of lady’s and/or man’s arm hold (1 rev. with each hold)
4) Additional revolution(s) of the lady after the first revolution (counts as many times as repeated)

So I think what they were aiming for is difficult entry, change of hold, and two extra revolutions.

It looks to me like they did get the extra revolution after the change of hold, which is what he thought the problem usually was, but they only had ~1 3/4 revolution before the change, so they didn't get the feature for an extra rev in the first position.

Thus the features would be difficult entry, change of hold, and 1 extra revolution. Level 3 makes sense to me.

I guess in the past they didn't hold the extra rev after the change long enough and lost both those features, and it didn't occur to Maxim that they could have lost the feature for the other extra revolution this time.

Mrs. P · Dec 15, 2011

Sorry, but an interview of one person who questions the levels of his technical elements does not validate that the technical callers are insane, corrupt or stupid.

And how do you know that the technical callers aren't being held accountable? In fact I find it hard to be that technical callers have free reign to do whatever they want, as some are claiming here.

jcoates · Dec 15, 2011

Some people are just difficult to please and like to complain about everything. Regardless of the system, they would find fault somewhere. Besides, conspiracy theories are never boring, despite being mostly useless and laughable.

Redstone · Dec 15, 2011

dorispulaski said:
Their pair spins are particularly weak, IMO. They should go to the dancers to learn how to do one and keep it centered without travelling around.

They didn't do spins and jumps at practises since he got his trauma this Sptember

I'm not the biggest CoP's fan and I somewhat agree with Maxim that it's very confusing. And may also add that CoP already needs some modification (hello, even some skater, who I believe aren't that stupid, cannot understand it).
The thing is he doesn't blame the judges or imply that they're corrupt, VT say in the very beginning of the article that they lost because of the mistakes they've done, they should've skater cleaner. Plus the judges don't even determine the levels, the tech. panel does.

dorispulaski · Dec 15, 2011

No wonder they are struggling a bit with the spin then.

BTW, dancemaster's post above explains that there is an appeal process, but you have a very brief window.

We all saw this happen in the case of P&B's SD at Skate America. At first, the deduction for the fall (which occurred during transitions, not an element) was not taken. However, after D&W skated, the change had been made to the scoring. It did not change the order of finish, but did make 2nd place 1 point closer to 3rd.

The rules are not that bad; coaches at least should understand them and be able to explain the results to their skaters.

Some skaters do not absorb it though, or cannot access that knowledge in the heat of the moment. Oda still has not learned not to get zero points for added elements, for example, and I am sure it has been explained to him many times.

mousepotato · Dec 15, 2011

I don't think her head was below her hip for at least half of a revolution, that may have something to do with it.

ivy · Dec 15, 2011

This is slightly off topic (sorry!), but the pairs death spiral have been ruined for me by the CoP (which I mostly support).

They used to be elegant, dramatic moves done with flair and emotion, now they are a series of check marks to get your level up and are sooooooooo boring. Here's what I would do - skaters can't do a level 2 move till they have received a majority of +3 GoE at 2 ISU sanctioned events for doing the same element at level 1. Then they can get credit for level 2, but not level 3 till they get similar positive GoEs. Or find some other way to reward beautifully executed simple elements over mediocre complex ones

skateflower · Dec 15, 2011

mousepotato said:
Maybe it's just Trankov who doesn't 'get it'

He needs to have his coach handle it if they are confused, not spout off in an interview just because he doesn't understand. In understand frustration but there is a big difference between an element being called wrong and a skater who probably isn't familiar with the rules.

This is just crap from the usual CoP apologists. The truth is many many skaters and coaches have expressed their dismay over the levels the different technical controllers assigned to their elements. How the hell can you say with such certainty the technical controllers are indeed correct? By blindindly trust them?? Insanity and denial.

ImaginaryPogue · Dec 15, 2011

skateflower said:
This is just crap from the usual CoP apologists. The truth is many many skaters and coaches have expressed their dismay over the levels the different technical controllers assigned to their elements. How the hell can you say with such certainty the technical controllers are indeed correct? By blindindly trust them?? Insanity and denial.

....also quoting this.

emma · Dec 15, 2011

ivy said:
This is slightly off topic (sorry!), but the pairs death spiral have been ruined for me by the CoP (which I mostly support).

They used to be elegant, dramatic moves done with flair and emotion, now they are a series of check marks to get your level up and are sooooooooo boring. Here's what I would do - skaters can't do a level 2 move till they have received a majority of +3 GoE at 2 ISU sanctioned events for doing the same element at level 1. Then they can get credit for level 2, but not level 3 till they get similar positive GoEs. Or find some other way to reward beautifully executed simple elements over mediocre complex ones

yes...and pair side by side spins are almost as unbearable to me now too.

Who can hold technical callers accountable?

skateflower

Match Penalty

gkelly

ImaginaryPogue

mousepotato

Violet Bliss

Bluebonnet

gkelly

dancemaster

gmyers

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

gkelly

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

jcoates

Redstone

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

mousepotato

ivy

skateflower

Match Penalty

ImaginaryPogue

emma

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