Patrick Chan

4everchan said:

yeah javi did 3z-2t... no idea why patrick didn't think fast enough... he must be tired... won;t watch it... i'll save myself the torture and hope he can gain a few spots with the lp but most likely hope he can just skate well... funny thing : i just got given mack the knife to learn for a show....

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It really wasn't too bad as a performance. The pop wasn't really that disrupting. What was sad to see was his face afterwards.

well he is much more attractive when he smiles.... but if he is sad, i can offer him some hugs thanks for sharing... i am still not going to look at the sp... i will hope that this is just a process for him and that he will get better and better each competition... to be honest, i feared this would happened since he did so well too early too soon.... it may have been distracting... it takes time to come back to competition after a year off... it's not like he was really jumping quads and 3axels in shows... and zayaking is totally perfect in shows they all do multiple triple toes he just need to refocus

xibsuarz said:

It really wasn't too bad as a performance. The pop wasn't really that disrupting. What was sad to see was his face afterwards.

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Patrick had a bad day. He felt off and errors kept adding on. While he was off-minded, his basic skating was beautiful... I enjoy his skating no matter what.
What's done is done. Life goes on. He will spend a day off wisely and put together a good quality free program on Saturday as a veteran champion.

Here is a quote from his interview;
"...There’s definitely days when my warm-up is ….I feel off, like I feel jet lagged, but I know if I give myself two or three sessions I can always by the end of the day get a good quality program. That is, I think, where experience comes in..."

xibsuarz said:

Triple doubles are allowed as well, as long the jump is not repeated. AFAIK, A 3Lz+2T would have counted.

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Bumdid said:

I think 3lz+2t would have counted but a 3lz+1t or 2t+2t would be marked as an invalid element.

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xibsuarz said:

It really wasn't too bad as a performance. The pop wasn't really that disrupting. What was sad to see was his face afterwards.

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Exactly. The performance was very good. Downgrading a quad into a triple and Zayaking are invisible errors that most people didn't even know about until the scores were explained. It's just that penalty for such errors is very severe, with the whole combo invalidated, not just the repeated 3T. The camel spin had visible issue as well but again most people would not know it was entirely invalidated.

I left the house since my last post and have not read any other thread since I got back almost 2 hours ago. I hope Patrick is well. I am concerned because usually no matter the outcome he would find something positive and some new lesson learned from the experience but this time he really didn't want to say anything but be alone. I hope he finds his purpose and confidence again and takes this event as the practice that he intended and stays the course for his longer term goal.

He has to decide if he wants to be competitive at the highest level. He can be if he wants it. It's a new journey requiring new plans and actions but the required winner's mindset is the same as always. He had it and he can still have it, competition rust notwithstanding.

i think him and I need a violet pill

Violet Bliss said:

Exactly. The performance was very good. Downgrading a quad into a triple and Zayaking are invisible errors that most people didn't even know about until the scores were explained. It's just that penalty for such errors is very severe, with the whole combo invalidated, not just the repeated 3T. The camel spin had visible issue as well but again most people would not know it was entirely invalidated.

I left the house since my last post and have not read any other thread since I got back almost 2 hours ago. I hope Patrick is well. I am concerned because usually no matter the outcome he would find something positive and some new lesson learned from the experience but this time he really didn't want to say anything but be alone. I hope he finds his purpose and confidence again and takes this event as the practice that he intended and stays the course for his longer term goal.

He has to decide if he wants to be competitive at the highest level. He can be if he wants it. It's a new journey requiring new plans and actions but the required winner's mindset is the same as always. He had it and he can still have it, competition rust notwithstanding.

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Violet Bliss said:

He has to decide if he wants to be competitive at the highest level. He can be if he wants it. It's a new journey requiring new plans and actions but the required winner's mindset is the same as always. He had it and he can still have it, competition rust notwithstanding.

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Yes, and I think despite his claims earlier that he will not panic because of Hanyu and Jin's multiple quads, it might have gotten a bit to him, being there at the competition with them in person. Maybe he's doubting again whether he should even be competing, or whether he's too old to perform the same level of technical difficulty. I wish him the best and hope there isn't some other issue or factor that's distracting or discouraging him right now.

Good things that can/will come out of being in 6th place:

- I am sure that he will study the rulebook closely now so he won't repeat the same SP rule mistakes again.
- Since this is the third time that he's had problems with the SP in competition, hopefully he'll do some serious work to fix the issue(s) that cause him to falter.
- Further clarification of his goals for coming back to competition. What is it that he is hoping to achieve this year? Once decided, he should go for it with all his might and not waver.
- Build his mental toughness and competitive fire - he will not take anything for granted now.

I felt bad for Patrick until I remembered that just being at the GPF and skating with the best in the world is something to be grateful for, no matter the outcome. There are so many other fine skaters who would have loved the opportunity to be there. So I will be proud of what Patrick has accomplished so far and expect him to find a way to do his very best.

i think some people have explained that this is not even a Zayak rule but a SP rule that is weird and yeah.. i am sure he didn't realize it… i think that the spin is a freak mistake.. the invalid element another one… i mean those two mistakes are about 12 points less… that would put him in podium contention… without a quad… so whatever… patrick is fine…. he will survive… he will fight… and we will be blessed… i am selfish… i don't care about his results… i just want him to keep skating at this level as when he gives us a program like the SC LP… i am in heaven… that's all i need … once or twice a year… to be happy…. maybe we hope for too much too quickly

vivley said:

Yes, and I think despite his claims earlier that he will not panic because of Hanyu and Jin's multiple quads, it might have gotten a bit to him, being there at the competition with them in person. Maybe he's doubting again whether he should even be competing, or whether he's too old to perform the same level of technical difficulty. I wish him the best and hope there isn't some other issue or factor that's distracting or discouraging him right now.

Good things that can/will come out of being in 6th place:

- I am sure that he will now study the rulebook closely so he won't repeat the same zayaking mistakes again.
- Since this is the third time that he's had problems with the SP in competition, hopefully he'll do some serious work to fix the issue(s) that cause him to falter.
- Further clarification of his goals for coming back to competition. What is it that he is hoping to achieve this year? Once decided, he should go for it with all his might and not waver.
- Build his mental toughness and competitive fire - he will not take anything for granted now.

I felt bad for Patrick until I remembered that just being at the GPF and skating with the best in the world is something to be grateful for, no matter the outcome. There are so many other fine skaters who would have loved the opportunity to be there. So I will be proud of what Patrick has accomplished so far and expect him to find a way to do his very best.

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Thanks, 4everchan, I revised my post. I was wondering about this SP rule. According to the Toronto Star article:

Prior to this season, quick-thinking skaters could ad lib on the program contents if they missed an element. That’s why Chan hastily added a triple toe to what would have been a stand-alone triple Lutz. Instead, because skaters are not permitted to perform the same jump twice in the short, two triple toes cancelled out all the points in the combo. So Chan earned marks only for a lowly triple toe at the beginning of the routine.

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So this weird SP rule was just implemented this season?

vivley said:

Thanks, 4everchan, I revised my post. I was wondering about this SP rule. According to the Toronto Star article:



So this weird SP rule was just implemented this season?

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vb can confirm this but i think it's been a couple seasons old… it's not a good rule as it truly favours skaters who have a 4S rather than a 4T … as most skaters use T as second combo jump…. and of course, it favours skaters who do a 3Loop as second combo jump (very few of them)…. i think the rule shouldn't apply to the second jump of a combo…. but only to the first…. for instance, if someone is doing a 4LZ as a solo jump, but pops it into a triple, he should not be allowed to do a 3lz combo…. but penalizing skaters who pop their first 4T into a double or a triple, when they add that same level of toe at the back of a combo is weird… it encourages the skater not to do try for a real combo at all…

but in al honesty, chan lost points but i'd rather see him to a real strong combo at this stage… at WC… it's a different story but GPF is meh who cares

4everchan said:

i think some people have explained that this is not even a Zayak rule but a SP rule that is weird and yeah.. i am sure he didn't realize it… i think that the spin is a freak mistake.. the invalid element another one… i mean those two mistakes are about 12 points less… that would put him in podium contention… without a quad… so whatever… patrick is fine…. he will survive… he will fight… and we will be blessed… i am selfish… i don't care about his results… i just want him to keep skating at this level as when he gives us a program like the SC LP… i am in heaven… that's all i need … once or twice a year… to be happy…. maybe we hope for too much too quickly

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4everchan said:

vb can confirm this but i think it's been a couple seasons old… it's not a good rule as it truly favours skaters who have a 4S rather than a 4T … as most skaters use T as second combo jump…. and of course, it favours skaters who do a 3Loop as second combo jump (very few of them)…. i think the rule shouldn't apply to the second jump of a combo…. but only to the first…. for instance, if someone is doing a 4LZ as a solo jump, but pops it into a triple, he should not be allowed to do a 3lz combo…. but penalizing skaters who pop their first 4T into a double or a triple, when they add that same level of toe at the back of a combo is weird… it encourages the skater not to do try for a real combo at all…

but in al honesty, chan lost points but i'd rather see him to a real strong combo at this stage… at WC… it's a different story but GPF is meh who cares

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So it's an SP rule and not a Zayaking issue. Very interesting. Come to think of it, I did read in the chart of SP requirements that a solo jump can't be repeated in the combo. I can kind of see why the rule is there, but I agree with 4everchan that it really favors skaters who have a 4S. Patrick can be forgiven for not knowing that rule.

On to the LP!

My friend was just at Sagrada Familia and she spotted Patrick with Kathy doing the audio tour right in front of her. Hope he is able to relax a bit and start fresh tomorrow. He just need to trust his training and repeat the skate he did at Skate Canada again :agree:

I don't really know this SP Zayak rule is new or not. In the LP, a skater can repeat 2 triple jumps as long as one of each is in a combo. SP is more specific about the jumps allowed - one Axel (2A or 3A), one combo and one solo (triple or quad) out of steps. Within such restrictions, no repeat is allowed. Patrick almost never popped jumps, not 4T at least, and the plan B he needed was to make the later jump a combo if the 4T is not stable enough to tack on the 3T, IOW, he could choose which non-Axel jumping pass to be the combo. This was also his advantage over the others because only he had steps before the 4T so it could be credited as a solo. However, even before Hanyu and maybe a couple others could have credited steps before their quads, the Tech Panels have been ignoring the step requirement for the quad in the SP so many straight quads from those unable to do quad combo still get their solo quads ratified, letting them do the easier 3/3 combo.

Also, Patrick has always chosen to do 4/3 combo with 3/3 as plan B even though the extra difficult quad combo doesn't gain any bonus but increases the chances of negative GOE whereas a 3/3 combo in later half of the SP receives 10% bonus. (The SP bonus is something I don't agree with because a skater does not get exhausted after half a SP like he likely does in the LP. The new SP bonus is meant to encourage spreading out the jumps in the SP but I think putting all 3 jumps at the beginning can justifiably suffer PCS deduction.)

For me, his disastrous GPF SP (score wise) is just some almost inevitable unfortunate event in an elite skater's competitive career. It's his emotional state and mindset I'm most concerned with, no matter which is cause and which is effect. He may have been shocked and disheartened by the result of the SP or his SP errors may have been a result of his new less than confident mindset.

In any case, I hope it's a temporary state and he will recover after some rest, a re-examination of his comeback reason, and a regaining of perspectives.

If Patrick still has competitive ambitious, he needs to reclaim his winner attitude. Right now Hanyu has it. He told Patrick on the SC podium that he would win the next battle and stand on the top. This is the kind of talk that would get Patrick pages and pages of criticism and disparaging and stay in people's mind as proof of his arrogance. Yet it's exactly this kind of determination and confidence it takes to be a champion, expressed or not.

A year off competition circuit is a long time at the top level these days. He rivals kept gaining experience and improving big ticket skills while the next waves of phenoms are arriving at the scene. His main rival is Hanyu, who seems untouchable right now. But if Patrick believes in himself, then he should know he only needs another quad and consistency in all his jumps and he is already almost there.

If winning is important to Patrick, he needs unshakable confidence, the sense of entitlement, which in turn will also help him technically to get his 4S competition ready as well as consistency in all his jumps. (The consistency is not always required to win but the right mindset is a must.) He is extremely close even if it takes a little time after a year of sabbatical. Mental strength plus a step towards an increased technical level. It is all within his ability and reach.

Thanks, everyone for your explanations of the rule and why it benefits some and disadvantages others.

And thanks Dasani for sharing your friend's Patrick sighting!

Violet Bliss said:

If Patrick still has competitive ambitious, he needs to reclaim his winner attitude. Right now Hanyu has it. He told Patrick on the SC podium that he would win the next battle and stand on the top. This is the kind of talk that would get Patrick pages and pages of criticism and disparaging and stay in people's mind as proof of his arrogance. Yet it's exactly this kind of determination and confidence it takes to be a champion, expressed or not.

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Thanks for sharing. I didn't know Hanyu said that to Patrick, and on the podium no less. (Maybe he meant it in a friendly competitive type of way, but I don't think that was good sportsmanship.) You're right about reclaiming a winner's attitude. However, so far whenever I've read or watched Patrick and Kathy talk about his comeback reasons, they don't discuss competitive ambition as a reason, nor do I see it in their attitude/mindset. It seems to be more about bringing artistry and the elements of show skating to competition, or elevating figure skating as a sport, but not about winning. Even the emotional moment he had before his fabulous SC FS doesn't correlate - he felt fear and frustration, not confidence or a strong desire to win. I think he said afterwards that he never expected to be in the place of the winner.

So then I wonder - does he want to win? Or does he want to bring what he thinks are the missing elements of artistry, etc., to the sport? Can he achieve both at the same time?

Hanyu, Fired up by Competiton: Interview

Y: At the medals ceremony, Patrick and I congratulated each other, He said congratulations and I said congratulations, and then I said "But next time, I'm going to win." I said "next time I'm going to be standing there (center podium) you just wait."

Matsuoka: You say such a thing...

Y: Really, from the time of the Olympic season, I'm...actually from before that....2010...I had heard that Patricks skating is wonderful! So I saw it close up, (COR 2010) and I thought, I'm going to study this! Let's steal this! And at that competition I fell to bits and was 7th. -That's where it all began!

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I know Patrick's been talking about performance rather than winning competition. It may have been the reason he pops his quads theses days with the priority on clean performance over scoring points. But can he avoid or bypass the desire to win when it had been his "right" for almost all his skating career? When he has to actually see the exact scores of all the competitors at the same event? Or even of an event he's not in? Can he achieve his stated artistic goal when his performance is overshadowed by record smashing marks achieved by someone else he is constantly being compared to? If he chooses to achieve his goal in competitions, then he has to compete. It doesn't mean he has to win all the time, but he can't compete without wanting to win all the time.

Performance and winning are not necessarily mutually exclusive. One thing is for sure, Patrick has to know he does not have to choose one over another. Making a choice means conceding, just like lots of those who says "I just want to do my best". He doesn't have to talk arrogantly but he needs to believe in his heart he's already won before he starts skating. I will believe along with him if he does.

I just figured out my disappointment with Patrick's costumes. Besides not showcasing his beautiful lines, extension, and movements, they are too casual and look off the rack. Costumes, like our attires, also reflect one's status and self esteem. They need to show the importance he regards the competitions, with quality befitting a great champion. He needs to show he cares enough and not to skimp on them. A king needs to dress like a king at the appropriate occasions.

I totally agree with you. If you go in a competition, you will have to have the desire to win to get the best out of you. There are a lot of factors to get Yuzuru to where he is, among which is being extremely competitive and ambitious. He has never been shy about that, and that fires up him especially in a adverse situation. Among the top men, his will power is his greatest weapon. I know Patrick said that he is not skating for the medals, however in really it is like you are sailing upstream - you don't go up (up your technical elements and your desire to compete) you will be washed down. I love Patrick's skating, and I really, really, want to see he brings up what he is capable of.

In terms of Yuzu's winner attitude...I somehow remember he even said something similar to Javi, his best skating buddy, after he lost the world title (perhaps when he was crying on Javi's shoulders). No one doubts the good sportsmanship between the two - they are extremely supportive to each other. Yuzuru is a very decent young man, and he respects his fellow skaters no matter how hard he wants to win. I don't think Patrick was offended. I actually hope that can fire him up too.

vivley said:

Thanks, everyone for your explanations of the rule and why it benefits some and disadvantages others.

And thanks Dasani for sharing your friend's Patrick sighting!



Thanks for sharing. I didn't know Hanyu said that to Patrick, and on the podium no less. (Maybe he meant it in a friendly competitive type of way, but I don't think that was good sportsmanship.) You're right about reclaiming a winner's attitude. However, so far whenever I've read or watched Patrick and Kathy talk about his comeback reasons, they don't discuss competitive ambition as a reason, nor do I see it in their attitude/mindset. It seems to be more about bringing artistry and the elements of show skating to competition, or elevating figure skating as a sport, but not about winning. Even the emotional moment he had before his fabulous SC FS doesn't correlate - he felt fear and frustration, not confidence or a strong desire to win. I think he said afterwards that he never expected to be in the place of the winner.

So then I wonder - does he want to win? Or does he want to bring what he thinks are the missing elements of artistry, etc., to the sport? Can he achieve both at the same time?

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vivley said:

Thanks, everyone for your explanations of the rule and why it benefits some and disadvantages others.

And thanks Dasani for sharing your friend's Patrick sighting!



Thanks for sharing. I didn't know Hanyu said that to Patrick, and on the podium no less. (Maybe he meant it in a friendly competitive type of way, but I don't think that was good sportsmanship.) You're right about reclaiming a winner's attitude. However, so far whenever I've read or watched Patrick and Kathy talk about his comeback reasons, they don't discuss competitive ambition as a reason, nor do I see it in their attitude/mindset. It seems to be more about bringing artistry and the elements of show skating to competition, or elevating figure skating as a sport, but not about winning. Even the emotional moment he had before his fabulous SC FS doesn't correlate - he felt fear and frustration, not confidence or a strong desire to win. I think he said afterwards that he never expected to be in the place of the winner.

So then I wonder - does he want to win? Or does he want to bring what he thinks are the missing elements of artistry, etc., to the sport? Can he achieve both at the same time?

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He can add something to the sport if people notice him, see him. Frankly speaking, the general audience, not the dedicated fans, will not notice him if he ends up six out of six. In order to be seen he needs to be at least near podium most of times. No one doubts his talent, he has proved himself before, but he can not add anything to the men's field if he does not win especially with such a fierce tsunami that there is.

I hope Patrick has found his peace and perspective. One competition does not define his skating career and every champion has some unfortunate competitions. He has recovered from bitter disappointments before and he will again. I hope tomorrow he will show us the fierce competitor that he is. I hope he will stay calm and fully focus on every present moment of the program. I hope he will amaze us all again.

I hope Patrick remembers the message sent to him via a special balloon at the Vancouver Olympic and BELIEVE.

It occurred to me amidst the discussion here that Patrick might have been emotionally affected by some event in his personal life. We tend to know about and focus on a skater's skating life but they are human too with the usual life's joys and tribulations. E.g. Patrick was depressed and contemplating quitting before Worlds 2012 because of turmoils within his team. It affected his skating but he pulled through being the champion that he was.

I hope Patrick can put whatever distraction aside while competing and that he will resolve whatever issue soon, before or after the LP. I was listening online to a spiritual teacher last night and he taught clearing subconscious blocks like others also do. But he brought up the point that sometimes people think it doesn't work because the problem shows up again while in actuality there are more than one issues and we can only clear them one at a time, when the problem arises. So I thought in general and about Patrick and realized difficult times are really opportunities to clear mental blocks and emotional issues. So whether Patrick's problem is directly skating related or not, I hope he becomes aware of it and clear it out like he did at SC.

Best wishes and white light to Patrick, always.