Patrick Chan

calica said:

In the VK of Patrick, they shared the comment of Tarasova

"Это другое поколение. Это люди, у которых нет конца. Потому что их способностям, им нет конца. Их трудолюбию можно только позавидовать. Их влюбленность в то, что они делают.. Она бесконечна..."

I can not translate it because my English and my Russian is bad, but they are very beautiful words.
If any user is russian, I hope to translate it for you

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I don't speak Russian either so I have no idea what that says, but in addition to Tarasova's comment about Patrick in general that VB already quoted, in the same post the FSU user said, "So TAT made an interesting comment during Patrick's FS. She think that he needs more rest time between his 3A and the 3T that we assume is a place holder for the 4T. Because the 3A is such a challenging jump for him, he needs to have more steps in between, before he approaches the 4T. She called it a design or composition error."

Again, I don't have any idea if that quote says something different from either of these two things. Russian fans of Patrick, HELP US!

Violet Bliss said:

Tat's comment on the design error of Patrick's SP is very interesting too, concurring with observations voiced on this thread.

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What I read was about a design error in the FS. What did she say about the SP?

dorispulaski said:

Clearly, to get more interesting costumes

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You want Patrick to wear something like ilia Kulik's 1998 Olympic giraffe outfit?

Violet Bliss said:

Picturing Patrick in a very colourful costume..........

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My choice would be a form-fitting bright tie dye t-shirt. No bell-bottoms because Patrick likes clean lines and we also don't want him catching his toe picks on the hem. Under no circumstances should he don an afro wig. (At the 2014 Canadian Nationals Gala, Lawrence/Sweigers skating to 70's circa number both wore black afro wigs. I was so uncomfortable that halfway through the performance I said to my companion, "I don't think this is politically correct!").

I didn’t think I was going to multiquote in this thread again so soon, but the conversation has been so incredibly fascinating that here I go again.

First, I want to thank qwertyskates and blueberryhill for their music suggestions for Patrick. I’d never heard Nina Simone’s version of “Feeling Good” and it is absolutely amazing and I agree that it would be perfect for Patrick to skate to. “Everyday People” would be so much fun for us to watch and for Patrick to do. I think the lines "You love me, you hate me, you know me and then, You can't figure out the bag I'm in" perfectly describe where he fits in (or doesn’t fit in, depending on who you listen to) in the skating world right now. Apparently Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski don’t know which bag Patrick is in after the GPF. (I’ll comment more on their commentary in my next post).

vivley said:

Is there a quiet, perhaps shyer, more introspective side of him that's coming out now? He had said that at Skate Canada after his FS he felt like the "real him" was genuinely happy to be there (I remember someone on here saying that they had never seen him react that way after a skate). There, he seemed very humbled and touched by his victory. Patrick has also said that if he was going to come back, he wanted to do it on his own terms. So the overall message that comes across to me is that he wants to be his genuine self when he skates, and not put on an act to please others. For this reason at times I'm not even sure that his SP music really fits who he is as a person and a skater.

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When I think about it this way, I really do wonder why he chose Mack the Knife. What was it about the song that grabbed him in such a way that he said, “Yes, I will use this for my SP?” VB said earlier that Mack the Knife is difficult and confusing to emotionally connect with, but Patrick must have on some level. Maybe it was the music itself as opposed to the lyrics? Lyrically, I don’t find it an appealing song. The tune gets stuck in my head though.

blueberryhill said:

What a beautiful post! I think your English is perfect! Regarding the highlighted portion, from the very beginning of the season I have felt the same way. I think of Patrick's comeback as a marathon, not a sprint. For me Skate Canada was all about the exquisite Chopin fs. The win and gold medal was immaterial.

I know Violet Bliss goes into detail and I agree with all her observations (stay the course and work on technical advancement and mental toughness).

Sometimes we get caught up in wanting instant gratification when it isn't realistic or even necessary.

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I agree with all of this. Thank you.

qwertyskates said:

Thank you, Violet Bliss, vivley and blueberryhill for the thoughtful replies.

Violet Bliss, I agree completely that the mind game is crucial, especially at the competitive level. i would like to try these mind adjustment music/programs myself, I need them! Does Patrick do any such meditative practices? I feel that for all his bravado, Patrick doesn't have the killer instinct in him, he just isn't that type of person, he loves skating, he loves doing it for the audience, he no doubt loves to win but he isn't driven to knock someone off like in a boxing match, to deliver that KO, it isn't Patrick. He is trying to be that because of so much taunting going on in the sport, especially from supporters and fans of other skaters.

However, I think he will win if he works towards the goal of bettering himself, and advancing the sport. Exhilarating music, like you said, might inspire him. He is the true poet on ice, feeling everything in the music, from his blades to his finger tips. This is why I wish he will take on the most exhilarating music out there too, and bring it and spread the good feeling to all of us.

vivley, bravo, you're very observant. Secretly, i wonder if Don Laws' passing last December at about this time has something to do with his new pensiveness?

I too perceive a change in Patrick, he is coming to terms with himself, with what he is. I actually feel that he is finally turning into a real man. Like in the Rudyard Kipling poem "If"

http://41.media.tumblr.com/6cf883436c789b182f88d1d1c387e322/tumblr_mv6l8kjsDg1sjt9puo1_1280.jpg

Patrick needs to transcend it all, and skate a transcending skate, to of course better himself, without the "noise" around him. Maria B was 26-27 when she won Worlds in 1999, and she showed what it is like to skate like a woman. Patrick skates like a man, and he will show us what his journey means.

He struggled with the SP, and your observations are spot on - it's not easy to hit his first big jump so early, and the music, though fun and jazzy, reminds me so much of an old McDonald's ad...:noshake:

blueberryhill, Nina Simone's voice is timeless, like a female Louis Armstrong. So strong, so soulful - it is actually richer, more impactful and powerful than Michael Buble's. Her voice makes you pay attention, and she makes you feel every word of the song. The accompanying music is big, but her voice is so huge, it alone carries the song.

Whenever I need a pick me up, this is the song I turn to. I first heard it as a Muse cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmwRQqJsegw

Then I discovered Nina Simone's version. It is like Muse's version x1000000..., even though her arrangements were so much simpler. It's *that* voice, powerful, perfect tenor but full-bodied and honeyed at the same time. The way she ends on a crescendo feels like a Level 4 spin to me!

I went to listen to Buble's version too, but it sounds weaker, it's kind of an ordinary voice.

I think not many skaters can do the song justice, hope they don't attempt it. Only Patrick's complete presence on ice can manifest this pure expression of life's greatness. If not a program then a Gala, would make us all feel so good!:hap57:

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I love this whole post and I especially agree with what I’ve bolded. And thanks for bringing up “If.” It was wonderful to read!

blueberryhill said:

OMG, I've always hoped for Patrick to read this for inspiration. First you and then Violet Bliss. I guess great minds thinks alike!

These two lines from "If" are inscribed above the entranceway to centre court at Wimbledon.
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two impostors just the same;
http://aquila.stjohnscollege.co.za/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Wimbledon.jpg

There is a picture of Roger Federer (his idol!) on Patrick's Twitter page
https://www.instagram.com/p/rdyLLYx1zJ/
If Patrick knew that Federer walked under these words on his journey to greatness it might inspire him too! But in truth, it seems like the whole poem was written with Patrick in mind.

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I didn’t know that those two lines from “If” are inscribed above the entranceway to Center Court at Wimbledon. This so so cool and the quote is so very fitting for what happens at Wimbledon. And yes, the poem fits Patrick’s situation very well.

Violet Bliss said:

Wow. There are so many thoughtful posts here. Thanks for sharing. I'm so impressed that Patrick's fans here are into observations rather than judgments.

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This is what I love about this thread also. It’s especially been that way since Patrick’s comeback. It’s like the Sochi monkey is off our backs and so we can just sit back and enjoy the rest of the ride. Patrick has said that future accomplishments in competition would be “bonuses,” and part of me feels like Patrick’s entire comeback is a “bonus” for me as a fan. Don’t get me wrong -- I want him to get more medals/titles, but it doesn’t “matter” in terms of why I’ll remember his skating career.

Thanks everybody for all the recent posts. If I, or anyone else does not get back to you on any point it's not that your views are not valued and dismissed but that there's something else that grabs and then the conversation goes in another direction. I find that even with a long post from one poster it's easy to overlook things within it that deserve discussion.

Violet Bliss, I know that you try very hard to keep things positive and I love that here but sometimes to make a point I might mention another skater. Just letting you know that I'm not bashing anyone.

Qwertyskates, you've mentioned Don Laws a couple of times. There's a book on him and according to Google it's Don Laws: The Life of an Olympic Figure Skating Coach (2012); I read a library copy. There were four pages in it devoted to Patrick. He says that Patrick never gave him a reason for leaving but Don thinks it had to do with his age. He thought that Patrick did not want to experience another loss like he had with Mr. Colson.

qwertyskates said:

Patrick has packed his program with a lot of complex footwork and moves, it leaves little room for him to attempt quads. Hanyu's program wasn't as demanding between the elements, and he had time to prep himself for his huge jumps. All the spread eagles, ina bauers and hydroblades help skaters not only to highlight the choreography but also allow breathing room to get ready for the next element. Ack, audiences seem to think they are difficult to do, whereas changing directions, momentum, constantly moving one's feet and displacing body weight are in fact more difficult to control, more demanding of energy and taxing on the muscles.

The music Seimei, with its even base and long melody, and Shoma's Turandot were pieces that are much easier to skate to. A great skater can leverage these to the hilt, earning an extra boost of PCS and leave the audience swooning. IMO, opera classics are like the Celine Dion pieces of their day. So many skaters won gold or got on the podium with Turandot!

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You're preaching to the choir here. You put into words what I felt from the moment I first saw Seimei @ Barrie. I saw the brilliant strategy that the team utilized (big music, dramatic pauses, crowd-pleasing choreographed breathers). My disappointment is with judges and commentators who should know better. Kurt Browning's quote at NHK ("even when he's doing nothing, he's doing something") is absolutely bizarre. This is a sport - if he's doing nothing then he should not be rewarded.

People are ascribing historical significance and superlatives to NHK/GPF results that go beyond what was produced. I've been waiting for people to remember that Timothy Goebel accomplished a three quad performance back in 2002. FINALLY, yesterday while skimming through FSUniverse, I saw two mentions of Goebel's performance. His jump content is very similar to Seimei 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQXiiknXAH8 (Timothy Goebel 2002 SLC lp)

So returning the conversation to Patrick, I think we both would like him to up his tech content and work out the mental/competition issues. Imo, Chopin FS is a masterpiece unlike any other program I've ever seen - the marriage of stunning, complex skating skills, musical artistry and yes, technical content; it's what figure skating is all about. So I have a question for you. What is an acceptable amount of his special skating that Patrick can lower before he stops being the skater that we both admire? Is it selling out? I love Patrick but if he ever hydroblades in a competitive program I think I would retch!

Wow, I appreciate reading all of your encouraging posts. It's wonderful to see the conversation we have on this forum! My multi-quoting response below:

mawamasha said:

But what if Patrick's strategy is actually better than his competitors' (in an Olympic perspective)?
Now we've had a couple of stellar competitions but I'm not sure that last year's trend (falls, crashes...) will not start again. Doing a quad is a huge risk for everyone. Plus, doing many quads takes a huge toll on an athlete's hips and knees and - unfortunately - I wouldn't be too surprised to hear of some serious injury soon.

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Welcome, Mawamasha! Actually, my husband believes the same thing you do, that sooner or later the multi-quad jumpers will "crash and burn". I certainly don't want anyone to get injured, but I agree with you that the repeated quads are risky. As Patrick's goal is to stay healthy through the Olympics, taking it slow and pacing himself might be the better strategy.

qwertyskates said:

Patrick has packed his program with a lot of complex footwork and moves, it leaves little room for him to attempt quads. Hanyu's program wasn't as demanding between the elements, and he had time to prep himself for his huge jumps. All the spread eagles, ina bauers and hydroblades help skaters not only to highlight the choreography but also allow breathing room to get ready for the next element. Ack, audiences seem to think they are difficult to do, whereas changing directions, momentum, constantly moving one's feet and displacing body weight are in fact more difficult to control, more demanding of energy and taxing on the muscles.
Patrick loves to skate a difficult footwork program, will today's audience get it?

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Unfortunately, I don’t think today’s audience quite gets it. I myself didn’t realize how difficult and taxing Patrick’s constant momentum and changing of directions was until I heard the CCTV commentary on his skating. Patrick makes it all look so easy that I think the audience takes it for granted. I just hope that the judges see what he’s doing and reward him accordingly.

qwertyskates said:

I don't know how driven Patrick is to beat Hanyu, or if he is returning on his own terms and for himself, either way, I think he should be at peace. I think it wasn't the fact that he didn't podium that bothered him as much as the "chattering" and gloating - honestly, the lack of decency and sympathy...
Patrick's bravado and attempts at nonchalance just makes him fodder for his critics…

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At this point I don’t think Patrick is driven to beat Hanyu, but that’s okay as long as he stays true to his own goals. Who was gloating and had a lack of good sportsmanship? The commentators or Patrick’s competitors?

Yes, I noticed the bravado and attempt at nonchalance when he responded to Hanyu’s win the way he did. Answering in a PR manner hasn’t been one of his strengths, right? He did say in his interview with PJ Kwong that he tries to be gracious off the ice…

Violet Bliss said:

There is no point to concern with Johnny's view about Patrick. They can't compare, in figure skating's or in life's arena, in achievements or in values and goals. Johnny cannot understand being driven by innate values and desires of the authentic self. Acquiring skills and wisdom is not Johnny's desire or focus. He cannot understand Patrick, and is in no position to judge him.

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Ouch! Don’t tell Johnny that! But I agree that he and Tara don’t seem to understand Patrick that well. Even if Patrick doesn’t love competition right now, he is great at what he does on the ice. So should he then stop? Nope! He should stay on as long as his health and desire permit.

skatingfan4ever said:

I didn’t think I was going to multiquote in this thread again so soon, but the conversation has been so incredibly fascinating that here I go again.

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Haha, multiquote away! I’m glad we are having this fascinating conversation. And yes, for some reason “Mack the Knife” gets stuck in my head, too. Go figure, the song I don’t like replays over and over… I wonder what it’s like for Patrick to have to listen to it so many times?

blueberryhill said:

My disappointment is with judges and commentators who should know better.
People are ascribing historical significance and superlatives to NHK/GPF results that go beyond what was produced. I've been waiting for people to remember that Timothy Goebel accomplished a three quad performance back in 2002.

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Yes, I think the media and commentators are making a big deal out of this, but the difference between now and when Timothy Goebel accomplished a three quad performance is the new scoring system. I’m not sure what score Goebel would have gotten for his performance under the current system, but currently skaters are able to break world points records if they do more quads, and that’s why a big deal is made of it.

I love what Sonia Bianchetti said about this in her article, and her suggestions:

"The regulations seem to be much too hard for the majority of the competitors. During the programs they are mostly running from one jump to another, and very often, from one fall to another. They seem to be struggling with too many jumps, difficult variations in spins and even with overly complicated step sequences. Besides, the system clearly rewards too much the difficulties compared to the beauty and the artistic part of the program.

In my opinion, just a few changes could bring back the appeal and the beauty of the programs.

1. Reduce the number of jumps in the free programs and award no value if a jump or a throw (in pairs) is marred by a fall... No longer should jump attempts with a fall be rewarded by nearly as many points, if not more, as a completed jump of a lower level."

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I hope the ISU will bring some balance back into the scoring system so Patrick's artistry and exquisite skating skills can remain competitive against skaters with 3-6 quads in their programs. Either way, I will enjoy his performances as long as he does.

I think we can all agree that medals or not, we have been blessed with Patrick's return... if he hadn't come back, we would have missed out on his beautiful chopin program... we are also blessed that we aren't biased negatively and we can appreciate patrick's out of this world skating skills.... lurking around on other threads of this forum, this one is probably one of the classiest.... and it does represent who patrick is. I think that this is perhaps why, us, his fans, are producing such positive conversation that isn't about dismissing others but simply appreciating the beauty of skating. I think that us, his fans, are the first ones to admit when other skaters move us..we are the first to recognize it when Patrick doesn't do well and we do it with love and support and hope for a better skate....I come to this thread and always feel pleased to read you all and welcomed to share my thoughts. happy holidays to you all .

It’s been established in this thread that TV commentary is entirely unnecessary with this LP, but in case you’re interested…

British Eurosport – Favorite Quote: [after the opening combo] “Well, that’s exactly why he is a 3-time World Champion. He was all over the shop on the warmup. Fantastic start!”

CBC – Favorite Quote: [after the 3S] “Those shoulders have come down. He’s really into the ice and it is a joy to watch him when he gets like this.”

NBC (same link posted here earlier) – Favorite Quote: “This program is so beautifully designed. It seems funny to say, but in this competition if Patrick has a leg up on anyone it’s definitely on the choreography and composition side of things.” [Funny is an interesting word to use there, though – subtle shade?]

vivley said:

Speaking of his journey, someone posted the NBC commentary on his GPF FS on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu2UGN7yu1Y

At 4:25 of the video the commentators discussed Patrick's return, and Tara seemed to imply that he didn't return to competition for the right reasons. She said at 4:57, "but if you're gonna compete, you should love it." Since Patrick doesn't exactly love competing right now (currently it makes him feel extremely uncomfortable), this calls into question his reasons and motives for competing.

Also, Patrick is now being called "old school" vs. the "new school" Jin Boyang? At 5:50 Johnny Weir tells us what we already know, that Patrick needs at least 2 quads plus all the PCS to win. But something about the way he says it irks me. I know he's talking about winning but it comes across as if he's saying that Patrick doesn't deserve to be on the ice if he doesn't increase his jumps to match Hanyu or Fernandez. We've discussed this before, but what if Patrick is not aiming to win competitions this season? Perhaps this kind of judgment is another reason why he's feeling a lot of pressure and not handling it so well?

Unfortunately, whatever his reasons (which I believe to be good ones related to artistry, etc.), I think Patrick couldn't have returned to competition at a worse time. His current goals and objectives seem to be at odds with the direction Yuzuru Hanyu and Jin Boyang are taking the sport. And while the NBC commentators admire Patrick's skating, they also seem to think that unless he keeps up, he'll be left behind in the dust of skating history. This is a very difficult time in Patrick's career, indeed.

So my best wishes for Patrick are that he stands firm and true to himself and his goals. It takes a man of strong character and perseverance to stay the course and not let outside pressures affect him. I will be most interested to see how he deals with "what we demand now in our sport." Stay strong! Stay true, Patrick!

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I have many thoughts about the NBC GPF commentary. First of all, it’s not like Patrick intended to do a 3T. He came to GPF with two quads, so he knows he needs them, and in fact, he will probably add a second 3A and maybe a 4S. Also, I wonder how many skaters actually love competing. Patrick is honest enough in the press that we know how uncomfortable he is, but other skaters probably are too but they don’t say so. Did Johnny or Tara actually love competing? I would be genuinely curious about other skaters’ answers to that question.

Another thing that intrigues me is that Patrick put out LPs at SC and GPF that were virtually identical, and yet Johnny, Tara, and Terry were less positive at GPF than at SC. I wonder what could account for the difference in their tone/vibe for a similar performance. Maybe it’s because Patrick was so far behind after the SP at GPF, or because Yuzu’s new records/clean programs with higher BV happened after SC, or because of their personal preferences, or because of their mood that day, etc? Any thoughts? Might they have been more positive at GPF if Patrick had medaled?

qwertyskates said:

Hmmm...I was listening to the commentary and it wasn't as bad as I'd imagine, Weir actually said Chopin was beautifully choreographed and the LP was "competitive". Tara said Patrick hit all his quads easily during practice, so it isn't as if they wrote him off.

What surprised me was the lack of mention as to why his TES marks for SP were so low - it's because of the stupid rules, not because he didn't deliver a good performance. Without the rules, were his jumps counted, he would have been easily won silver or bronze here.

Another thing to be kept in mind for those sneering at Patrick is that Hanyu changed his jumps layout at the *last* minute, 2 weeks before GPF, and fortunately for him, he was ready. He tested it out at NHK and with his resounding success buoyed by a rousing home crowd, he then brought the game-changer to Barcelona. Even Javier, with his strong jumps, don't have the time to adjust, not to mention Patrick.

Patrick otoh, is back after a year and is at 1 year anniversary of Don Laws' passing. He was severely disrupted and handicapped by Bordeaux/Paris, he never had a chance to try his LP since SC. If their fates were changed, eg Hanyu got affected by Paris, and Patrick skated his SC right before GPF, I believe things could turn out differently for them.

Patrick has packed his program with a lot of complex footwork and moves, it leaves little room for him to attempt quads. Hanyu's program wasn't as demanding between the elements, and he had time to prep himself for his huge jumps. All the spread eagles, ina bauers and hydroblades help skaters not only to highlight the choreography but also allow breathing room to get ready for the next element. Ack, audiences seem to think they are difficult to do, whereas changing directions, momentum, constantly moving one's feet and displacing body weight are in fact more difficult to control, more demanding of energy and taxing on the muscles.

The music Seimei, with its even base and long melody, and Shoma's Turandot were pieces that are much easier to skate to. A great skater can leverage these to the hilt, earning an extra boost of PCS and leave the audience swooning. IMO, opera classics are like the Celine Dion pieces of their day. So many skaters won gold or got on the podium with Turandot!

Winning is a strategic play as much as a talent competition. While Patrick loves to skate a difficult footwork program, will today's audience get it? Will he be disadvantaged by the more difficult and abstract music he picked, especially as vocals are now allowed?

In a way, the commentators were right, Patrick needs to make strategic changes to compete, like what Hanyu did mid-competition. He wanted to beat everyone - even those he could easily and handily beat, eg Jin, he wanted to beat them at their strengths, eg Jin's arsenal of quads.

I don't know how driven Patrick is to beat Hanyu, or if he is returning on his own terms and for himself, either way, I think he should be at peace. Many of his fans don't mind if he doesn't podium, as we are all just psyched to see the skating quality he produces. I think it wasn't the fact that he didn't podium that bothered him as much as the "chattering" and gloating - honestly, the lack of decency and sympathy....thankfully I missed posting on forums during the most vicious cycles of Yuna and Mao rivalry, but I could see that for all the beauty displayed on the ice, there's a lot of ugly sparring behind the scene.

Patrick's bravado and attempts at nonchalance just makes him fodder for his critics. He has to learn to speak in PR language, eg. he needs to learn from others, he admires this or that skater, he needs to better himself, etc. stuff that writers and fans love to hear from a "nice-guy" persona.

However, if Patrick wants to win, he can up his jumps, tweak his programs, bring on the BIG warhorses, learn from his competitors and deliver the emotional high coupled with 100+ TES. It's not beyond his reach.

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Great post! I bolded 4 things to comment on:

1. I agree in that the difficulty of what Patrick does is not as obvious. It's way easier to tell that quads are harder than triples, and that doing more quads is harder than doing fewer quads, than it is to evaluate someone's skating skills. On top of that, Patrick can make it look so darn easy that people can forget how hard it really is to do what he does on the ice.

2. :2thumbs: Watching Patrick skate with quality is the biggest thing I care about as a fan.

3. I think he’s gotten a lot better at interviews since this season has started. Then again, I stay away from “normal” threads about Patrick so I don’t know what fans in general are really saying. I don’t know if Patrick knows how to be anything other than forthright. And regardless of what he says, people can choose to interpret it however they want. Patrick can say things he thinks are harmless and people take it and run with it. What specific ways do you think he could/should change to create a “nice-guy persona?”

4. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that next season he should choose warhorses so his programs will be easier to “get” and have broader appeal? Which ones do you suggest?

OT: I'm so glad there's a "Like" button on this forum now because it's a quick way to react to a post. My last two posts have taken me a long time to write and there are so many other wonderful posts that have been written while I've been writing mine. Liking a post is a great alternative to multiquoting and saves me so much time. I so appreciate ALL of your posts, even if I don't quote you or respond to you specifically. Thank you all so much!!!

I'll be honest here. Until very recently I was more a Patrick fan than I was a Yuzuru fan. And that was because of Patrick's skating and programs that I tended to like more than Yuzuru's. Now I don't know anymore. Not to say that I love Yuzuru more than Pattrick now - it's more like I don't know who of the two to put first in my list of current favorite male skaters. I still love Patrick for his skating, programs and musicality (which has improved greatly over time), but now I also appreciate Yuzuru more than ever mostly because of his incredible mental strength and will to stand against huge pressure, and also his ability to put everything together like he has those two last competitions, and his skills in almost everything which become even more visible when he skates like this. Plus, I like his FS/LP for this season more than I have liked any of his previous FS/LPs.

Having said all that, I do realize that Yuzuru doesn't really "deserve" higher PCS than Patrick. I understand what people here are saying about his hydroblading and such, although I do view it as a choreographic highlight that does have a place also in a competitive program, just like spread eagles and spirals. At the same time some of the comments (I am not pointing to specific ones, since then I would have to reread many pages in this thread which I don't have time for) seem almost belittling of what Yuzuru did, almost like saying that he does nothing except hydroblading and other easy things and that his skating skills are really far below Patrick's. That is what I don't like and can't agree with. Some people seem to forget the objective truth - except the hydroblading part, most of Yuzuru's other "easy" tricks come right before or right after his jumps, making his elements and his program much more difficult. While those "tricks" are easy in themselves, they are difficult together with jumps and other elements. And it is true that, while Patrick has more choreography and more difficult footwork throughout his program, Yuzuru has more transitions (that are also more difficult) into and out of his elements and less preparation for those elements. So, I would say, while Patrick still deserves higher SS marks than Yuzuru, I understand why Yuzuru's program merits higher transition marks (although one can argue that transitions in and out of elements are awarded already in GOE). I'd say they are pretty much equal in Performance/Execution when skating cleanly. Choreography is also a matter of taste and what one values in figure skating choreography (footwork and beautiful upper body moves or other figure skating moves that highlight the music), so I would agree with equal marks here as well. I would still give Interpretation to Patrick, but, again, I would understand equal marks, seeing how this also depends at least partially on one's views about this component.


P.S.: I hope that no one feels offended that I defended Yuzuru here in a Patrick fan thread.

Thank you all, every one of you, VB, vivley, blueberryhill, skatingfan4ever, 4ever, calica, for being civilly and intelligently engaging, I love the tone here, I love that Patrick's fans are a *thoughtful*, supportive, analytical and philosophical lot!:agree:

I was psyched that VB mentioned she posted "If" on a previous Patrick thread, and from blueberryhill and so many others, how parallel and spontaneous is that?! We are similar in outlook and similarly attracted to Patrick's skating!

While we all feel privileged by Patrick's comeback, and don't really care if he doesn't podium, I think all of us secretly wish for Patrick to be competitive again, not to beat any particular skaters, but to fully participate a a force to be reckoned with.

(1) Winning Strategies
Strategically, I really admire Hanyu, he is a brilliant competitor - here's why. His great TES and jumps is a moot point, so I won't go into those. There is one crucial aspect that he's different from Patrick - his focus on gathering all he can gather outside of himself to win, not just learning the great aspects of other skaters, but every detail, including the music, is especially designed to move his audience. A Japanese friend told me that his Chopin ballad 1 was in fact recently featured as a high point in one of the most popular and moving anime, "shigatsu wa kimi no uso", about the trials and tribulations of a piano prodigy. His Japanese audience would have known and felt the swells of emotion as one of the most popular character slowly died as the Ballade was played. Athletic Max Aaron also picked Swanlake to raise his weaker PCS, and it worked!

"Mack the Knife" sounds like it's all about Patrick's comeback, not so much about moving his audience. Unfortunately, it's been parodied by bloggers and made into some bad jokes since. I do wish that if Patrick wants to compete he would also try to win the hearts and minds of the audience, to move them, and as a result, earn the judges' respect. Perhaps such personal pieces can go into the Gala while the warhorses be reserved for competitions?

We can't change others, can't change audiences and judges, we can only change ourselves and adapt to new realities. We have to accept that the majority out there loves the hydroblades and cantilevers. Patrick is definitely competitive, it is a matter of how strong is his desire to win? How flexible and adaptable? My jaws dropped when Hanyu announced his new Jumps layout at NHK - I could feel he was out to beat Jin mid GP season, he is completely flexible about changes and can stick with the new and better versions of the SP.

So can Patrick watch how the audience cheered and clapped during others' programs, especially Hanyu's and Shoma's? That's a few PCS worth pursuing, could even be as much as 10 more points for both SP and LP. Quads...which ones, and how? Will a lower, less complicated footwork program offer better set up time for quads and axel? Personally, I recognize I'm in the minority and most don't understand SS, so how to rack up points?

As for what his fans could tolerate of the pruning, I'd say just do whatever works for Patrick's new competitiveness and his fans will be happy.

(2) Costumes

I prefer to err on the elegant side, and not too blousy, which mars his physique.

If he is really skating to Simone, a mod-glam black turtleneck with grey slacks might look very elegant.

Something like this, but with discrete sparkles/crystals added?



http://g03.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB13Z.r...nt-clothes-to-buy-slim-font-b-mens-b-font.jpg

I like how the details accentuate the arms, very effective in highlighting the posture of the body.

Oh, btw, don't forget Johnny Weir is well acquainted with Hanyu, he designed his costumes! Still, I didn't think his commentary was that dismissive of Patrick, he was raising questions that many of us are asking too. Even in the harshest criticisms lie a tiny grain of truth, it is important to keep an open mind to learn, learn and learn from others.

(3) PR

Patrick has to speak diplomatically and to demonstrate maturity and respect for other skaters, it's not all about himself. It rubs people the wrong way, especially as audiences wield ever greater power over the outcome. Personally, I separate the person from the art but no big deal.

blueberryhill said:

Kurt Browning's quote at NHK ("even when he's doing nothing, he's doing something") is absolutely bizarre. This is a sport - if he's doing nothing then he should not be rewarded.

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Despite Kurt's comment, there are really very, very few points during the program when Yuzuru is "doing nothing", and they are very brief. And even then it depends on how you look at what Yuzru is doing, or not doing - to some he is doing nothing, to some he is doing something. It's not like he is just standing around without moving. In those places he is either doing simpler steps/crossovers (not that many of them, to be honest), or interpreting the music/doing a move that highlights the music. In the same vain, it could be said that Patrick is doing nothing in the first part of his program where he has longer preparations (longer than Yuzuru) for his 4toe3toe and 3 axel.

People are ascribing historical significance and superlatives to NHK/GPF results that go beyond what was produced. I've been waiting for people to remember that Timothy Goebel accomplished a three quad performance back in 2002. FINALLY, yesterday while skimming through FSUniverse, I saw two mentions of Goebel's performance. His jump content is very similar to Seimei 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQXiiknXAH8 (Timothy Goebel 2002 SLC lp)

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True, and Timothy also had some transitions directly into and out of his jumps and spin, except his quads and 3 axel where he had very obvious preparations (more so than Yuzuru who has transitions into and out of his quad salchow and triple axel). Overall, though, I think Goebel's style (especially in this particular program) is more comparable to Fernandez's style than to Hanyu's style. His skating skills/speed are also not quite on Yuzuru's level, not to mention Patrick. So, what Hanyu does is still more difficult.

vivley said:

Unfortunately, I don’t think today’s audience quite gets it. I myself didn’t realize how difficult and taxing Patrick’s constant momentum and changing of directions was until I heard the CCTV commentary on his skating. Patrick makes it all look so easy that I think the audience takes it for granted. I just hope that the judges see what he’s doing and reward him accordingly.

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I agree with this completely.

Yes, I think the media and commentators are making a big deal out of this, but the difference between now and when Timothy Goebel accomplished a three quad performance is the new scoring system. I’m not sure what score Goebel would have gotten for his performance under the current system, but currently skaters are able to break world points records if they do more quads, and that’s why a big deal is made of it.

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I think that it's not just because of the new scoring per se, but also because of the requirements which are more demanding now. Most of the programs of the top competitors today, including Hanyu's, are more difficult than they were then - I think you know full well that it's not just about jumps now, you also have to have transitions (including into and out of the elements), very difficult steps and spins + also choreography, interpretation and performance in order to score like Hanyu or even remotely close to him. So, now it's more difficult to do a clean program/performance with the same jump content as then.

I think, if someone like Patrick with his amazing skating skills, footwork and choreography among elements managed to add technical content like Hanyu's and also transitions in and out of jumps + perform it cleanly, he would be even more admired than Hanyu is. But the fact is, Hanyu was the first to do it (jump content of this difficulty + do it cleanly) with the today's required difficulty in other elements/program construction aspects, so he is lauded as the new emperor of figure skating.

Violet Bliss said:

This thread is more than a retreat from the often unpleasant bias and even hostility, it is a fest, a celebration of Patrick Chan.

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Lauravvv. I've only been posting in this thread for a few days and I only joined because of these words from Violet Bliss. I have enjoyed it up until now.

Let me take the opportunity to thank vively, skatingfan4ever and qwertyskates to take time out for what must be a very hectic holiday schedule to post such thoughtful posts ABOUT PATRICK.

blueberryhill said:

You're preaching to the choir here. You put into words what I felt from the moment I first saw Seimei @ Barrie. I saw the brilliant strategy that the team utilized (big music, dramatic pauses, crowd-pleasing choreographed breathers). My disappointment is with judges and commentators who should know better. Kurt Browning's quote at NHK ("even when he's doing nothing, he's doing something") is absolutely bizarre. This is a sport - if he's doing nothing then he should not be rewarded.

People are ascribing historical significance and superlatives to NHK/GPF results that go beyond what was produced. I've been waiting for people to remember that Timothy Goebel accomplished a three quad performance back in 2002. FINALLY, yesterday while skimming through FSUniverse, I saw two mentions of Goebel's performance. His jump content is very similar to Seimei 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQXiiknXAH8 (Timothy Goebel 2002 SLC lp)

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blueberryhill said:

Lauravvv. I've only been posting in this thread for a few days and I only joined because of these words from Violet Bliss. I have enjoyed it up until now.

Let me take the opportunity to thank vively, skatingfan4ever and qwertyskates to take time out for what must be a very hectic holiday schedule to post such thoughtful posts ABOUT PATRICK.

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Then why did you write two paragraphs about Yuzuru? I am a fairly new fan of Patrick, and was feeling welcome here until the Yuzuru comparisons and criticisms started appearing.

Perhaps this fan fest has different rules than the others?

I forgot to post the analysis of Massimiliano and Angelo from Italian Europsport about Patrick and Yuzuru's programs. (translated by Carolina Corsali, Lys Alton and Greta Beltrami for YHIFG, I post it here with the permission of the translators)

The talk was after Skate Canada, it was over 80 minutes, they talked about all the transitions, steps, entries, spins... But my friends don't have time to translate the whole talk so this is just a summary. And yet it's still very long.

I don't want to link to facebook group so there's a thread in FSuniverse I opened here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/hanyus-seimei-vs-chans-chopin-analysis.96884/

In their opinions, both skaters' strategies are very different. One of the guy preferred Patrick's choreography more, saying it's richer. But they both think that Yuzuru isn't behind anyone at all when it comes to transitions.

They're very respectable guys in Italian skating community as they're ex skaters, and Angelo is also a coach. Of course, it's their personal opinions so you are free to disagree.

Enjoy.

blueberryhill said:

Lauravvv. I've only been posting in this thread for a few days and I only joined because of these words from Violet Bliss. I have enjoyed it up until now.

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I don't understand. Do you want to say that you enjoyed this thread until my posts? If you probably did not notice, I was not the one to start those comparisons to Yuzuru here. I was just responding to some of them. I would not have thought of writing about Hanyu here if other posters hadn't done that first.

Or do you want to say that comparisons with other skaters are allowed here just as long as they show those other skaters in negative/not so good light compared to Patrick, and comparisons that defend other skaters in some way are not allowed?

lauravvv said:

I'll be honest here. Until very recently I was more a Patrick fan than I was a Yuzuru fan. And that was because of Patrick's skating and programs that I tended to like more than Yuzuru's. Now I don't know anymore. Not to say that I love Yuzuru more than Pattrick now - it's more like I don't know who of the two to put first in my list of current favorite male skaters. I still love Patrick for his skating, programs and musicality (which has improved greatly over time), but now I also appreciate Yuzuru more than ever mostly because of his incredible mental strength and will to stand against huge pressure, and also his ability to put everything together like he has those two last competitions, and his skills in almost everything which become even more visible when he skates like this. Plus, I like his FS/LP for this season more than I have liked any of his previous FS/LPs.

Having said all that, I do realize that Yuzuru doesn't really "deserve" higher PCS than Patrick. I understand what people here are saying about his hydroblading and such, although I do view it as a choreographic highlight that does have a place also in a competitive program, just like spread eagles and spirals. At the same time some of the comments (I am not pointing to specific ones, since then I would have to reread many pages in this thread which I don't have time for) seem almost belittling of what Yuzuru did, almost like saying that he does nothing except hydroblading and other easy things and that his skating skills are really far below Patrick's. That is what I don't like and can't agree with. Some people seem to forget the objective truth - except the hydroblading part, most of Yuzuru's other "easy" tricks come right before or right after his jumps, making his elements and his program much more difficult. While those "tricks" are easy in themselves, they are difficult together with jumps and other elements. And it is true that, while Patrick has more choreography and more difficult footwork throughout his program, Yuzuru has more transitions (that are also more difficult) into and out of his elements and less preparation for those elements. So, I would say, while Patrick still deserves higher SS marks than Yuzuru, I understand why Yuzuru's program merits higher transition marks (although one can argue that transitions in and out of elements are awarded already in GOE). I'd say they are pretty much equal in Performance/Execution when skating cleanly. Choreography is also a matter of taste and what one values in figure skating choreography (footwork and beautiful upper body moves or other figure skating moves that highlight the music), so I would agree with equal marks here as well. I would still give Interpretation to Patrick, but, again, I would understand equal marks, seeing how this also depends at least partially on one's views about this component.


P.S.: I hope that no one feels offended that I defended Yuzuru here in a Patrick fan thread.

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hi laura, it takes me much more than that to be offended and also, it's not because I adore Patrick that I don't like other skaters... however, can we please, all of us, keep this thread a fan fest for Patrick? This thread has been my favourite on the forum because it is so positive, and when fans bring up other skaters, it tends to create a debate....

4everchan said:

hi laura, it takes me much more than that to be offended and also, it's not because I adore Patrick that I don't like other skaters... however, can we please, all of us, keep this thread a fan fest for Patrick? This thread has been my favourite on the forum because it is so positive, and when fans bring up other skaters, it tends to create a debate....

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Okay, I'll try. But, as I already reminded to blueberryhill, I was not the one to bring up other skaters, I just responded after others did bring up Hanyu here. But, of course, if someone else responds to one of my posts in a way that calls for a response from me, I will respond. That can be done through private messages, sure, but if the post I am responding to is visible to and readable for all, I want also my response to be readable for all. I hope, though, that this particular debate will just stop here and it won't be necessary.