Great Edges

ivy · Dec 21, 2011

There's been some talk about skaters with great edges; those that glide silently across the ice and effortlessly generate speed. Chan, Kozuka, Kwan, Gordeeva have been mentioned.

Does anyone have insight on where this ability comes from? Is it early correct training, an internal sense of balance and rhythm, just a gift they're born with, a willingness to spend hours perfect crossovers and other basic strokes? At one time the Russian Pairs program seems to have focused strongly and successfully on this, so it does seem to be something that can be taught.

Since it has served Patrick so well, we see more skaters focus on this?

mskater93 · Dec 21, 2011

Part of it is inate, part training and focus on technique.

FlattFan · Dec 21, 2011

I wouldn't put Kwan or Gordeeva anywhere near Shizuka and Carolina.
Those two have the best SS I have ever seen, especially Shizuka. She gained so much speed just by one or two strokes.

gkelly · Dec 21, 2011

I think there are a couple of different qualities that can all contribute to excellent skating skills.
E.g.,
effortless acceleration and absolute power/speed
quiet stroking
depth of edge
security of edge
agility to change direction with ease and control

What am I leaving out?

A few of the very top skaters have all of the above, some have some but not others.
(And some skaters get to the top for reasons other than their skating skills, but we won't talk about them in this thread)

kwanatic · Dec 21, 2011

FlattFan said:
I wouldn't put Kwan or Gordeeva anywhere near Shizuka and Carolina.

Only in terms of acceleration: Michelle wasn't as fast as Carolina...though I wouldn't call her slow either. In terms of strength of edge, depth, effortless movement, turns, control, etc. ...yeah, she was awesome.

It is something that's learned and I think you get a better skater when the skill is mastered early. I remember watching old videos of a 13 year old Michelle wowing the commentators with how well she skated in terms of blade mastery which was rather remarkable for a skater so young. Strong basics are the key to a great skater...

I've seen this with recently is Satako Miyahara of Japan. She's so tiny, but her blade work is phenomenal. All of her in-between stroking and transitions are great...it made me very mad that her PCS didn't always reflect that (more issues with lopsidded/@$$-backwards judging, but that's a topic for another thread).

Dragonlady · Dec 21, 2011

FlattFan said:
I wouldn't put Kwan or Gordeeva anywhere near Shizuka and Carolina.
Those two have the best SS I have ever seen, especially Shizuka. She gained so much speed just by one or two strokes.

I remember seeing Shizuka at Skate Canada in 2004. I could have watched her doing nothing but stroking around the rink all day. I was sitting in the front row.. Divakawa would glide past the boards and all you could hear was the wind through her hair and the creaking of her boots. Then Sasha would scratch past me. Noisiest blades I've ever heard on an elite skater. Just dreadful.

Irina was probably the most powerful woman I've ever seen. With two quick strokes she would be flying around the rink. Seeing her live was a revelation.

fairly4 · Dec 21, 2011

I would put Michelle KWan with those edges

Kostner, not so much/.

alot of today skaters use the flat of the blade.

michelle in my opinion had good edges.
but for non-fans of hers they didn't she had them irina didn't have has good michelle, but she had decent edges.

FlattFan · Dec 21, 2011

kwanatic said:
Only in terms of acceleration: Michelle wasn't as fast as Carolina...though I wouldn't call her slow either. In terms of strength of edge, depth, effortless movement, turns, control, etc. ...yeah, she was awesome.

I agree Michelle is very awesome in all of those areas. I just don't think she would be as effortless as Carolina or Shizuka under COP steps. Sure, her straightline steps were amazing, but they are relatively simple. If she had to do more bi-directional turnings, more upperbody movements, more more more, I think she would have a much harder time than Carolina.
Let's not forget Carolina was the first to get a level 4 step seq under CoP (when it was much harder to get).

kwanatic said:
I've seen this with recently is Satako Miyahara of Japan. She's so tiny, but her blade work is phenomenal. All of her in-between stroking and transitions are great...it made me very mad that her PCS didn't always reflect that (more issues with lopsidded/@$$-backwards judging, but that's a topic for another thread).

It was unfortunate because I thought she should get the highest TR in her JGP events.

Dragonlady said:
Irina was probably the most powerful woman I've ever seen. With two quick strokes she would be flying around the rink. Seeing her live was a revelation.

Irina was fast, but that was it. I don't think her SS was as good as the previously mentioned names. She was lacking in
depth of edge
security of edge
agility to change direction with ease and control

Spun Silver · Dec 21, 2011

What is the cause of silent blades?

Kitt · Dec 21, 2011

Spun Silver said:
What is the cause of silent blades?

I think it is being on the edge. Scratchy occurs when you are on the flat. I once sat close to where Johnny Weir landed a triple, and you couldn't hear a thing! It was amazing. You could see his bodily acceleration to turn that triple, and then you expected to hear something on landing.....but no.

If you watch Michelle vs. Sasha, you can see that Michelle has much better spiral edges. Sasha has an amazing Charlotte spiral, but it is on the flat. Still, she covers a lot of space.

Bartek · Dec 21, 2011

Irina's SS weren't only about her phenomenal speed. I think only Carolina is faster and she has a tie with Yu-Na. But apart from that Irina would skate on quite deep edges. Some of her arabesque spirals where on the deepest outside edges I've ever seen, even deeper than Michelle and we should remember that Irina had also more speed in her spirals than both Michelle and Sasha. Watch for example this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hINNgBAqIxQ&t=3m25s

Kitt · Dec 21, 2011

Wow, that is amazing! How I would love to be able to do that particular move.

Olympia · Dec 21, 2011

This is a great thread.

One thing I love about it is the descriptions offered by those who have seen the skaters live. Dragonlady, your account of watching Shizuka drift soundlessly around on the ice gave me gooseflesh. If she hadn't already been on my Life List, that would have put her on.

Kwanatic, on your recommendation I will try to keep Satako Miyahara in mind to follow her career. If she's this good this soon, we need to support her.

Of the men, I'm assuming that Browning would qualify for this thread? Aside from him and Weir, already mentioned here, who else? Oh, and John Curry, of course.

Dragonlady · Dec 21, 2011

FlattFan said:
Irina was fast, but that was it. I don't think her SS was as good as the previously mentioned names. She was lacking in
depth of edge
security of edge
agility to change direction with ease and control

I strongly disagree. Irina had all of the above, and in spades. She was faster than Kostner, by far. She could definitely change direction with ease and had effortless control of her edges. I remember Irina doing a footwork sequence in her SP that was entirely on one foot and she never lost speed throughout.

Spun Silver:

Blades are silent when they run clean and true and the skater is on an edge.

Spun Silver · Dec 21, 2011

OK, I get the part about being on an edge (thanks, Kitt and Dragonlady) - but "when (blades) run clean and true"?

Could you please relate that to skating skills as I am not sure what it means? Thanks!

ETA: It would help if you contrasted it with what the skater does to make noise, apart from being on the flat.

FlattFan · Dec 21, 2011

Bartek · Dec 21, 2011

Dragonlady said:
I strongly disagree. Irina had all of the above, and in spades. She was faster than Kostner, by far. She could definitely change direction with ease and had effortless control of her edges. I remember Irina doing a footwork sequence in her SP that was entirely on one foot and she never lost speed throughout.

Spun Silver:

Blades are silent when they run clean and true and the skater is on an edge.

Irina was faster than Kostner by far? WOW!! She must've looked like a thunderbolt then. I have seen neighter of them live so I cannot tell but I always thought Carolina was the fastest. I agree with that I Irina had other aspects of great skating skills and I think she truly belongs to this list. I always wondered how she kept the same speed throughout the whole footwork. How is it possible? Could someone explain? She gained a lot of speed before the footwork with few crossovers as always and then she started the footwork on one foot. It seems natural to me that she should lost speed since she didn't have extra pushes that you have if you do a footwork on both feet.

It's here. One of the best SP of her life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY

And look at 3:20!! What a deeeeeep edge in her spiral. I know she wasn't able to do positions like Sasha or Michelle but she certainly had the deepest edges and biggest speed.

Bartek · Dec 21, 2011

FlattFan said:
Let's compare Irina at her peak vs. Carolina on any given day

Irina's Spiral
Olympics 06 LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_uCJ3HoX20&feature=player_detailpage#t=195s
Euro 06 LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxfqzQ2nAr0&feature=player_detailpage#t=123s
Olympics 06 SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Gyxo9ads2po#t=163s
World 05 LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxfqzQ2nAr0&feature=player_detailpage#t=123s

Carolina's Spiral
World 04 SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HuwrdXlFVRc#t=105s
World 05 SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qtNTyUG0DTE#t=62s
World 07 SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-XX1kxQLMsw#t=119s

Irina couldn't control her edge most of the time. She always bobbled.

Let's look at footwork.
Irina's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zek69FhRfBc&feature=player_detailpage#t=273s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zek69FhRfBc&feature=player_detailpage#t=273s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Gyxo9ads2po#t=201s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Gyxo9ads2po#t=201s

Carolina's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Gyxo9ads2po#t=201s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-XX1kxQLMsw#t=63s

I believe footworks and spirals showcase individual SS best. There's no comparison. Carolina is just so much better. Faster, deeper edge, more control, etc...

Irina has more spring in her jumps, better spins, better presence on ice. But we're talking about great edges here, and she's not great.

Sorry but you actually picked Irina's worst spirals, not her peak. She couldn't control her edges well when she did Biellman spirals. Carolina wouldn't either if she attempted to do a true Biellman spiral. All she can is a sloppy catchfoot with her foot being held barely over her had. There is a difference between a simple catchfoot spiral and true Biellman spiral. Biellman is just way more difficult therefore it's harder to control the edge. Look at the example of Irina's spirals and footwork I gave and then compare. Irina had FANTASTIC edges, just as Kostner has. The footwork you chose isn't anywhere near her peak. While doing it, she was overwhelmed by emotions after delivering a technical content Carolina can't even dream of.

gkelly · Dec 21, 2011

Spun Silver said:
OK, I get the part about being on an edge (thanks, Kitt and Dragonlady) - but "when (blades) run clean and true"? Could you please relate that to skating skills as I am not sure what it means? Thanks!

Others may answer this better than I can. Basically, the weight should stay over the same optimum part of the blade while gliding, without wobbling. When it's time to execute a turn further forward or back on the blade, the weight shifts efficiently while maintaining the edge, and the turns are executed cleanly from edge to edge -- no scraping or flatting.

ETA: It would help if you contrasted it with what the skater does to make noise, apart from being on the flat.

Click to expand...

Bad noises would be scratching with the toepicks or scraping turns or skidding sideways on the edge.

Sometimes skidding is done intentionally, e.g., dragging the side of the blade to create friction to stop, or skidding the takeoff of a triple axel for better control.

There are also some moves on deep edges where the edge pushes against the ice to gain power that make sounds that are considered good.

ivy · Dec 21, 2011

Spun Silver said:
but "when (blades) run clean and true"? Could you please relate that to skating skills

ETA: It would help if you contrasted it with what the skater does to make noise, apart from being on the flat.

I'd be very interested to here what others have to say about this.

To me it means that skaters' balance and momentum are flowing with edge, there is no skidding. I skated all my life but didn't take lessons until an adult, and then only briefly, but I remember working on my back crossovers for along time to avoid skidding my blade as I pulled it in to cross over. Or learning a 3 turn so it left a clean line on the ice instead of a little skid fan in the center of the 3. Of course any time the blade is skidding you're loosing speed. In the 2nd (iirc) Carolina spiral video above it's cool to watch her transition from gliding on her edge to turning it purposefully into a skid to stop her momentum forward.

Great Edges

ivy

mskater93

FlattFan

Match Penalty

gkelly

kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!

Dragonlady

fairly4

FlattFan

Match Penalty

Spun Silver

Kitt

Bartek

Kitt

Olympia

Dragonlady

Spun Silver

FlattFan

Match Penalty

Bartek

Bartek

gkelly

ivy

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