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Thread: Japanese Nationals - Men

  1. #181
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    The standard of skating is so high and there is so much talent that I look to see who has potential to create strong pair and dance teams. Too bad the Japanese men do not have the size for pairs, but maybe ice dance?

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    But you (SkateFiguring) might be right. The fans we should be concerned about are fans like us. Fans who follow figure skating on the Internet, who praise and criticize our favorite skaters and their rivals, who do look at the progression of the season as a whole, and who like to debate the ins and outs of the scoring system. This is probably the future of the sport. (Unfortunately for the ISU, we don't give them any money in exchange for all this fun. )
    There has to be a right balance between marketing the sport & growing its popularity vs. designing a system that is fair to the athletes. Sometimes, these two goals are at odds with each other. CoP is in fact built and constantly evolved based on feedback from skaters and coaches, among other stakeholders in this sport. While you may feel it is destroying the marketability of the sport and you may have a point but it has to be pointed out that this is a system built by skaters for themselves. The ISU has the last word but it certainly isn't without significant inputs from the end users. Many other amateur sports have even less recognition than Figure Skating - should they tweak their system just so that it can be a little more marketable? Figure Skating wasn't that well known prior to the Kerrigan-Harding fiasco. The sport experienced an explosion in popularity from 1994 to about 2002 but it certainly wasn't because the 6.0 system was used. 6.0 may have been easier to educate new fans about the scoring system as it was more intuitive and much less cumbersome to learn. But to suggest it was responsible for the popularity of the sport and that its disappearance caused the popularity to drop is simply quite baseless. I have not seen any credible evidence in support of such theory, neither is true that CoP has a trend of producing winners with flawed performances. When was the last time a World Champion or an Olympic Champion under CoP fell and won? Rather, I think the recency effect - a well known psychological phenomenon, is coloring certain people's memory through nostalgia. In truth, there was no shortage of great champions in the past falling at competitions here and there, whether in GP or elsewhere. Stojko, statistically, a skater who fell on least jumps based on number of attempts than virtually any other men, crashed and burned at the 1996 Worlds. Does that diminish his record? Yamaguchi won her Olympic Gold with a fall. Michelle Kwan crashed & burned many times in various GP competitions. I don't understand why some expect skaters to be robots in order to maintain the popularity of this sport? Comparing Figure Skating to other sports is like comparing human being to chimpanze, similar but still quite different. Falling has just never been historically considered as a barrier for someone to win, never under 6.0 and never is under CoP. It is puzzling to me where this sudden nostalgia coming from? Whatever it is, it certainly wasn't an accurate reflection of the past, similar to how despite the programs having less elements today, some people still think, incorrectly, that skaters are required to do more, which is obviously not true. Human memory becomes unstable with time and I think this is what it is. Patrick Chan never won any senior competition with 3 falls in his Free Skate, yet such lie was repeated often enough that it is becoming true in some people's mind as cited here by a few in this very thread to suggest Takahashi wouldn't be given such privilege in an international competition that Chan would, except Chan never won anything with 3 falls in his FS.

    In either case, doubling a jump was/is quite evident as a serious error of omission to casual viewers as well as to ISU judges. And a complete pop looks just as bad as a fall.
    This where I think your lack of actual rinkside experience hurts your understanding of the sport. The reality is most casual viewers cannot differentiate a double from a triple. People you encounter on GS are not casual viewers, they may not be skaters but most people here follow it close enough they can make the distinction between double to a triple. The casual viewers rarely follow GP series unless they just happen to stumble upon the competition on TV. When do these people tune in? Worlds and Olympics and in the case of U.S. audience, the U.S. National also counts. The point is doubling a jump is most definitely not an obvious error to people who don't have at least a basic knowledge of the sport. Even a complete pop is not obvious to these people unless it was obvious that the skaters struggled (e.g. two footed, lost balance or hand down).

    I still think it would be more sports-like to give 0 points. Like in the sport of rodeo. If the cowboy falls off the horse, no matter how much riding skill he showed up to that point, and no matter how shiny his spurs, the announcer says, "Let's give that cowboy a big round of applause, 'cause that's all he is going to get for that ride."
    Most Triple jumps are already pretty close to 0 points when a fall occurs. Fall on a 3T is worth at most 1.00 net of all deductions. A 3Lz< with a fall, as is often the case when someone falls on the 3Lz, is worth about 1.00 point as well. Takahashi's fall on the last 3F, which was a 3F< netted him less than 1.00. Considerations for Quads are a little more complex, especially since Evan won the Olympics without it. Quads were punished more harshly for falling, up to -5.2 based on negative GOE and mandatory deduction. But many men thought that was too harsh and stopped doing them in their programs. Is that really in the interest of the sport? Ladies skating are zzzzzzz these days because ladies have significantly scaled back their technical content in general. Men skating is far more exciting because each is trying to outdo the other with even more Quads and all types of them have been tried up to Quad Lutz this season. Your proposal is not without merit, it's just that every decision has intended and unintended consequences. It really wouldn't help if by trying to address the appearance of someone falling yet still winning - the rule ends up making the men skating like girls. Then what? I think if it were so easy, it would have been tried by now. Easier said than done.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But you (SkateFiguring) might be right. The fans we should be concerned about are fans like us. Fans who follow figure skating on the Internet, who praise and criticize our favorite skaters and their rivals, who do look at the progression of the season as a whole, and who like to debate the ins and outs of the scoring system. This is probably the future of the sport. (Unfortunately for the ISU, we don't give them any money in exchange for all this fun. )
    But we are the core, the hard core, this sport has to maintain before trying to garner more general interest. ISU can't afford to lose us or trade us for the frickle public. We do a lot of marketing for them.

    Controversies and criticisms are not the enemies of popularity. Disinterest is.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 12-27-2011 at 12:35 PM. Reason: "Criticisms" is more appropriate than "complaints".

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Patrick Chan never won any senior competition with 3 falls in his Free Skate, yet such lie was repeated often enough that it is becoming true in some people's mind as cited here by a few in this very thread to suggest Takahashi wouldn't be given such privilege in an international competition that Chan would, except Chan never won anything with 3 falls in his FS.
    You are too generous about 3 falls. Some believe his falls are accumulative

    Honestly, it's said that it's just a myth, but since some keep repeating about the false accusation, than that becomes true. Sigh.

  5. #185
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    Congratulations to the medalists! Very happy for Takahashi, Kozuka, and Hanyu!

    Look at the top three LP's PCS:

    Yuzuru PCS 79.00 7.95 7.50 8.15 7.90 8.00 0.00
    Takahiko PCS 81.50 8.45 7.85 8.20 8.20 8.05 1.00
    Daisuke PCS 86.90 8.80 8.50 8.45 8.85 8.85 3.00

    Hanyu has the least visible mistakes - no falls, but his PCS has the least in all categories. Noticed that three-fall Takahashi has had the highest PE and the Highest IN. One-fall Kozuka was in second in PE and in IN. How do you explain them? If this were another international competition with Patrick Chan involved, I'm sure another round of outrage would have been burst out by now with all sorts of the name calling.

    But so far, it's rather quiet and seemed that fans have accepted the results with little complains. Why?! Because their favorite skater has won!!!

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Congratulations to the medalists! Very happy for Takahashi, Kozuka, and Hanyu!

    Look at the top three LP's PCS:

    Yuzuru PCS 79.00 7.95 7.50 8.15 7.90 8.00 0.00
    Takahiko PCS 81.50 8.45 7.85 8.20 8.20 8.05 1.00
    Daisuke PCS 86.90 8.80 8.50 8.45 8.85 8.85 3.00
    Can someone explain what transitions are because I don't understand why Hanyu did not get the highest in that category. I though he had the most linking steps going into his jumps and spins. I've come to accept the rest of the PCS categories. Please and thank you :D
    I'm happy that Hanyu made the world team. In one of the ending clips for nationals, I think they showed him crying.

    I think people should make a thread where they argue about skaters PCS and results because it's a little distracting to go through pages of fanwars, trying to read up about the competition. I do understand that with every competition there will be people angry with the results and that comparison is part of competition :(
    Last edited by FTnoona; 12-28-2011 at 03:11 AM.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    Can someone explain what transitions are because I don't understand why Hanyu did not get the highest in that category. I though he had the most linking steps going into his jumps and spins.
    There is also a matter of quality.

  8. #188
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    At least at this competition, I don’t see Daisuke’s “quality of transitions” superior to Kozuka and Hanyu. If this was an international competition and was judged fairly, then the “quality of transitions” ranking should be:
    1. Hanyu
    2. Kozuka
    3. Daisuke

    And since PE has much to do with integrity of a program, fall and especially multiple falls should result in lower PE score. Thus, PE ranking should be:
    1. Hanyu
    2. Kozuka
    3. Daisuke

    I also don’t get why Kozuka got such a high IN score. As mentioned by many posters, he is quite boring and expressionless. IN ranking should be:
    1. Daisuke
    2. Hanyu
    3. Kozuka

    Moreover, in the LP Daisuke was slower than usual and he did not have as good flow as Kozuka and Hanyu, so his SS score should not be so much higher than the other two, either.

    Overall, I feel that the JSF just used PCS to maintain the order they prefer—looks like they already decided to give gold to Daisuke, silver to Kozuka, and bronze to Hanyu even before the competition started.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    I also don’t get why Kozuka got such a high IN score. As mentioned by many posters, he is quite boring and expressionless. IN ranking should be:
    1. Daisuke
    2. Hanyu
    3. Kozuka
    To each his own!! I don't find Kozuka boring and expressionless at all!!

  10. #190
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    Honestly, I don't think Daisuke should have gotten higher SS marks at all. Takahiko has the strongest basics of the three, period.

  11. #191
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
    But so far, it's rather quiet and seemed that fans have accepted the results with little complains. Why?! Because their favorite skater has won!!!
    Ui, sure makes it sound like "everybody loves Takahashi" and "everybody hates Chan" - it's not that bad, I hope!

    Anyway, this competition kind of left me with a feeling of dissatisfaction - I'm glad Takahashi won because I like him as a skater and I'm glad he got his 4T back on the ice after so many years beautifully in his SP, but with 3 falls it just can't look right to win overall...
    On the other hand I really don't think it would look better to me if Kozuka would have won. I wouldn't say his skating is boring or that he isn't paying any attention to his music, but except for the SS part I don't see where he's supposedly underscored at PCS. Hope I'm not enraging some of his fans here, but I do think he misses something about the strength, determination or drive Takahashi has (or even Hanyu). It's like he, unlike Takahashi or Hanyu, didn't do a 4T in his short and rather wanted to play it save instead of fully going for it - that's like the overall expression I get from his skating, rather save than special.
    If it wouldn't have been for Hanyu's mistake in his short I think one might make an attempt that he should have won overall, but his more-then-10-points-gap to Takahashi doesn't make it look like it. So I can't really say I like the judging, but I don't really want to make a fuss out of it... I'd agree with doctor2014 on the PCS part, Hanyu shouldn't be behind Takahashi and Kozuka in all parts. But I'm kinda glad anyway Hanyu is "just" third, if I look hat how Gachinski seemed to have a little break down because of all the pressure following his bronze at worlds, I don't want Hanyu to have to cope with that too. I really love seeing this boy skate, so excited to see how he will develop and if he will be able to get better and better and maybe come up with a 4S in his long or something in some years... fix your stamina problems, little Yuzuru!

    And I really try not to over do this, but i just have to let out a little fan-girly moment here:
    Yuzuru goes to worlds!! Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee~es!!!!!

    Done... sorry

    Have to admit I didn't even miss Oda that much, but I'm still sorry for him... hope he fully recovers and comes back all healthy.
    And good for Machida and Mura, being send to 4CC! Really deserved here I think, looking forward to see both of them again.

  12. #192
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    Li'Kitsu, Welcome to Golden Skate. We hope you will post long and often!

    And we have no problems at all with fangirly or fanboyly moments. Go for it!

  13. #193
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    Welcome Li'Kitsu.

    (And I learned a new word from Dorui P.: fanboyly. )

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