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Thread: Japanese Nationals - Men

  1. #151
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    So Takahashi, Kozuka, and Hanyu will go to Worlds?

    I’m just wondering who will be sent to 4cc? Takahashi, Kozuka, and Machida?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Essentially, what you are saying is this competition is biased in favor of Takahashi because he shows more promise this year. While countries do tend to promote their best skater, it's unclear who is the best skater in Japan at the moment. The crowning effect based on GP results can be very dangerous since they aren't historically very reliable predictors of what will happen later in the season. I feel when there are more than one elite male skater from the same country, you can't let these kind of biases clouding the results. This feels like gambling. Canada used to have more than one top male skater at many points in time. Yet the top guy's national championship trophy is never secure, even for a 4 times & reigning World Champion. You'd think they must be pretty stupid to do that just prior to the important Olympic Games but if they had treated Stojko unfairly, I don't think he will later be able to become a master of his own or winning the Silver at the Lillehammer Olympics that many thought should have been gold. The point is, national competition should be fair and just, not trying to pick a winner based on past results, which we are seeing here.

    I didn't said the competition is necessarily biased in favor of Takahashi but the way the skaters were scored in the international competitions before nationals definitely has an impact at the national level.(remember how Mirai got hit with UR, some of them absurd, in 2009-2010 nationals, just because she had a reputation of UR her jumps? and then went to olys where she got a huge score for a clean skate, like the one she did at nationals, without UR any jump. This is a pure example on how the national judges are influenced on how the skater does internationally that season prior to nationals).
    It's not like Kozuka had a clean competition and lost, that would be biased. I do believe Kozuka should have won. Daisuke had momentum going into nationals and had a great SP for which of course the judges awarded him with sky rocket scores while Kozuka had an OK Sp. This happens all the time, last year for example Miki Ando's PCS were bigger than Mao's at nationals because Miki was the front-runner for worlds. I don't think this win is satisfying for Daisuke. Neither was last year for Kozuka(he said it himself). The skaters know better than us what they have to do to be the best and I don't think that national scoring has anything to do with it. I agree nationals should be fair. Sometimes they are, sometimes not 100%.

    SkateFiguring, I don't want to make this thread into a Chan vs Takahashi. My point was that even though Daisuke didn't fall at SC, he had many mistakes while at NHK his skating was much better and his PCS went up(7 points!). Then at the GPF when he skated a flawed Sp his PCS went down again. So far, on the international scene, Daisuke was not over-scored or won anything without deserving it.
    Last edited by Mirunna; 12-24-2011 at 04:48 PM.

  3. #153
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    http://youtu.be/eMlKo_cLAx0

    Mura's FP was really great! What are his chances of getting a GP event next year?

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirunna View Post
    SkateFiguring, I don't want to make this thread into a Chan vs Takahashi. My point was that even though Daisuke didn't fall at SC, he had many mistakes while at NHK his skating was much better and his PCS went up(7 points!). Then at the GPF when he skated a flawed Sp his PCS went down again. So far, on the international scene, Daisuke was not over-scored or won anything without deserving it.
    I was just refuting claims that Takahashi gets penalized while Chan never does, and other oft repeated false statements about Chan. It was not me who brought Chan up in this thread. The fact is Takahashi's PCS has always been kept high even when he makes many mistakes as reflected in his TES. I'm not saying anything against his marks, just that Chan is usually the one to be accused of what Takahashi gets and does. If Takahashi's situations are acceptable, stop making accusations against someone else. If they are not, get your target right.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 12-24-2011 at 05:11 PM.

  5. #155
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    Shoma Uno is so adorable. Is he going to the winter youth olympics thing?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YzP3...Xj0gEA&lf=plcp

    I wish he would go to another coach to fix his flutz

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketry View Post
    http://youtu.be/eMlKo_cLAx0

    Mura's FP was really great! What are his chances of getting a GP event next year?
    I don't think it's likely that he will be on the GP next year. Since Machida is Japan's #5 guy, I'm sure he'll get the spot at NHK again. I wish they hadn't cut so many spots out of the GP :(

  7. #157
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    One of the amazing parts of the competition was the amount of gifts that were thrown to the skaters. I would love to a be figure skater in Japan. I think someone gave Takahito Mura something from Burberry.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Actually, you should. It's a textbook demonstration on how a skater can still sell a program even with multiple falls/visible errors. His high PCS (nearly 87) attests to that.
    I have to disagree on that. I thought the performance was OK, but not marvelous. That last fall on the flip brought the program to a complete halt. He may have sold it to the judges, but I, for one, am not buying. (IMHO he needs peppier music, for one thing -- this isn't a funeral.)

    I am very disappointed once again with the judging system.

    Edited to add: Does anyone else think that Yuzuru Hanyu looks like he could be Mao Asada's brother?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianaSelene View Post
    Yes, except this is a national competition where Takahashi won. At an international one, he would never win. There is only one skater who can do that at an international competition and win. You know who it is.
    Nonetheless, he still won with 3 falls, wasn't it? And so are you implying that the judges could give crazy marks or bias at national, but not international? Hum.

    It's just funny to see that the same people (not you) went ballistic at Chan winning with falls seem to be very fine at Dai winning also with falls. That just showing

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    It's great to see someone fell 3 times and still won. I guess Chan's not the only one which many people like to believe so.
    To you and all Chan ubers who can't stop bringing his idol in any thread. Dai didn't win with three falls, unilke Chan in JO, for example. He lost to Yuzuru and Hanyu in LP because he made more mistakes than those two, again unlike Chan in GPF LP, where he ridiculously won while Dai was almost flawless. In general Dai won mainly thanks to Yuzuru's bad skating n SP. I would rather see Hanyu as a J-champion, but he screwed up yesterday. I was very disappointed with Dai's FS, and that's his problem- he can take things light-minded and treat them not seriously. He thought he had a large difference after SP, and he got lucky. He won't have this luck in international events and he shouldn't rely on luck. Kozuka wasn't underscored. He's just simply boring and not inspiring. International judges also didn't appreciate his programs this season much. So, the result in general is fair I think.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Nonetheless, he still won with 3 falls, wasn't it? And so are you implying that the judges could give crazy marks or bias at national, but not international? Hum.

    It's just funny to see that the same people (not you) went ballistic at Chan winning with falls seem to be very fine at Dai winning also with falls. That just showing
    Actually, it's more like people weren't fine with Chan winning the LONG PROGRAM at the GPF with falls (or step outs rather)

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    To you and all Chan ubers who can't stop bringing his idol in any thread. Dai didn't win with three falls, unilke Chan in JO, for example. He lost to Yuzuru and Hanyu in LP because he made more mistakes than those two, again unlike Chan in GPF LP, where he ridiculously won while Dai was almost flawless. In general Dai won mainly thanks to Yuzuru's bad skating n SP. I would rather see Hanyu as a J-champion, but he screwed up yesterday. I was very disappointed with Dai's FS, and that's his problem- he can take things light-minded and treat them not seriously. He thought he had a large difference after SP, and he got lucky. He won't have this luck in international events and he shouldn't rely on luck. Kozuka wasn't underscored. He's just simply boring and not inspiring. International judges also didn't appreciate his programs this season much. So, the result in general is fair I think.
    ^ THIS! Couldn't agree more.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have to disagree on that. I thought the performance was OK, but not marvelous. That last fall on the flip brought the program to a complete halt. He may have sold it to the judges, but I, for one, am not buying. (IMHO he needs peppier music, for one thing -- this isn't a funeral.)
    An obvious and valid point that not a single soul has the guts to acknowledge / discuss, even after it was pointed out. Because to acknowledge it is essentially the same as admitting the judges at this national event have likely deliberately ignored a major disruption in the program in order to hold up the eventual winner's PCS.

    I am very disappointed once again with the judging system.
    To be fair, it has very little to do with the system, the latter is working fine if you include the +SEQ penalty to my earlier calculations. These 3 errors likely caused him to lose about 20 points in TES in total, not exactly a small chunk. Had this being an international competition with close competitors and judged by a more impartial panel, there is very little chance that the same result can be replicated, not with a 20 points impact on TES alone, even without factoring what the impact should be for many of the PCS components. I think we are looking at a net impact close to - 25 points factoring both TES and PCS and that's enough to drop him outside of Top 6 in the World based on the competitiveness of last year's World Championship.

    On another note, Kozuka really didn't help his own cause either. His jumps were cautious and not as solid / smooth as they normally were and his facial expression is as wooden as he can possibly be. For comparison, this is how Chen interpreted the same piece of music as Kozuka: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOl2G...eature=related Look at the demonstrated emotions and movements, the difference is very obvious.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nena View Post
    I don't think it's likely that he will be on the GP next year. Since Machida is Japan's #5 guy, I'm sure he'll get the spot at NHK again. I wish they hadn't cut so many spots out of the GP :(
    It’s difficult to understand JSF’s decisions:

    1) Why did Murakami and Machida each get a GP spot this season, while Mura got none? Mura was in 5th place at last year’s Japanese Nationals, while Machida finished 6th and Murakami finished 7th.

    2) Why did all men and ladies get a PCS boost at the Japanese Nationals compared to their PCSs at international competitions? Why was Hanyu the only exception and why did he receive lower PCS at the Japanese Nationals than at GPF?

  15. #165
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    Re disruptive falls, Kozuka, in contrast, sprang from his 3A fall into a 1T jump. Now that's speedy fall recovery with presence of mind! I haven't been bothered by his oft sited "wooden expression" because I generally don't have my attention on facial expressions when a skater is moving fast on the ice. Nonehteless, I want to thank Wallylutz for bringing Lu Chen's skate. What a treat!

    I too find the JN judging of Takahashi's programs questionable but it doesn't have the same effect as the US Nationals questionable judging which crowned a rather undeserving champion and sent the B team to Worlds with resulting reduced number of entries for the next year. With much stricter judging, Takahashi would still medal and represent Japan with honour.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 12-25-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: I realized it wasn't a 2T Koz tacked on after the fall.

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