Feminism and Figure Skating | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Feminism and Figure Skating

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
In greek figure skaring disciplines are also described as men and women singles, pairs and ice dance, and while there is another word for lady, it is not used for sports.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
As for Ladies' v. Women's... yeah... but I'm more bothered by the negative impacts of feminism on women. And men. We could use more "ladies" in the world these days, IMO.

I cannot tell you how deeply offensive I find this comment. You liked it better when women couldn't vote, own property, inherit? You think that women SHOULD earn less than a man? That men should be given a job over a more qualified woman? You think that women should be subservient to men? Perhaps you should have grown up in the 50's and 60's, when men could do as they pleased and women put up with it.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Gosh, what a lovely example of liberal tolerance of other viewpoints. This thread is a hymn to feminist achievements but one small word of dissent is unbearable to you. Must absolutely everyone see things exactly the way you do?

I would appreciate your not putting opinions in my mouth, Dragonlady.

This thread began as a comment about the term "ladies" in skating. That is not an issue I get steamed up about. I think contemporary society's rejection of the idea of "ladies" and "gentlemen" is symptomatic of larger social changes. I don't like the coarsening of male-female relationships, the sacrifice of the idea of sexual difference, the default feminist suspicion of masculinity, the rise in female violence, the decline of marriage and rise of single-parenthood, the declining birth rate, or the normalization of prostitution and of abortion or child-murder, as earlier feminists quaintly called it (http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm#sbanthony).

I am grateful for and have benefited from the battles fought by earlier feminists including the ones you mentioned, and there are places in the world where those battles are still being, or to be, fought. Feminism is a term/phenomenon/philosophy with various phases and many definitions, some of which I am more sympathetic to than others.

Actually I did grow up in the 60s and 70s and was enormously influenced by second-wave feminism (Germaine Greer was a big revelation in my teens). It wasn't until much later (at least one wave later) that I came to see feminism's shadow side. I don't see this as a simple moral question. There are gains and costs, and their ratio changes in different contexts and periods. But there are certainly reasons why the term feminism is so unpopular outside academic circles.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Gosh, what a lovely example of liberal tolerance of other viewpoints. This thread is a hymn to feminist achievements but one small word of dissent is unbearable to you. Must absolutely everyone see things exactly the way you do?

I would appreciate your not putting opinions in my mouth, Dragonlady.

This thread began as a comment about the term "ladies" in skating. That is not an issue I get steamed up about. I think contemporary society's rejection of the idea of "ladies" and "gentlemen" is symptomatic of larger social changes. I don't like the coarsening of male-female relationships, the sacrifice of the idea of sexual difference, the default feminist suspicion of masculinity, the rise in female violence, the decline of marriage and rise of single-parenthood, the declining birth rate, or the normalization of prostitution and of abortion or child-murder, as earlier feminists quaintly called it (http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm#sbanthony).

I am grateful for and have benefited from the battles fought by earlier feminists including the ones you mentioned, and there are places in the world where those battles are still being, or to be, fought. Feminism is a term/phenomenon/philosophy with various phases and many definitions, some of which I am more sympathetic to than others.

Actually I did grow up in the 60s and 70s and was enormously influenced by second-wave feminism (Germaine Greer was a big revelation in my teens). It wasn't until much later (at least one wave later) that I came to see feminism's shadow side. I don't see this as a simple moral question. There are gains and costs, and their ratio changes in different contexts and periods. But there are certainly reasons why the term feminism is so unpopular outside academic circles.

:rock:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
One thing about "ladies" in figure skating is that it colors our expectation of their off-ice behavior. Ladies don't cuss, ladies don't boast, ladies don't call attention to themselves with belligerent comments. Men (but not gentlemen) do these things with gusto.

When a male figure skater pops off we simply smile to ourselves and say, "Oh that Johnny," or, "Oh that Patrick," or "Oh, that Evgeni."

But when a lady skater is asked by an interviewer, "So, how do you feel about losing this competition?" we expect her to say, "I will go back to the rink and work harder. I just want to skate and have fun." (Translation: "F-off, a------")
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Gosh, what a lovely example of liberal tolerance of other viewpoints. This thread is a hymn to feminist achievements but one small word of dissent is unbearable to you. Must absolutely everyone see things exactly the way you do?

I would appreciate your not putting opinions in my mouth, Dragonlady.

This thread began as a comment about the term "ladies" in skating. That is not an issue I get steamed up about. I think contemporary society's rejection of the idea of "ladies" and "gentlemen" is symptomatic of larger social changes. I don't like the coarsening of male-female relationships, the sacrifice of the idea of sexual difference, the default feminist suspicion of masculinity, the rise in female violence, the decline of marriage and rise of single-parenthood, the declining birth rate, or the normalization of prostitution and of abortion or child-murder, as earlier feminists quaintly called it (http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm#sbanthony).

I am grateful for and have benefited from the battles fought by earlier feminists including the ones you mentioned, and there are places in the world where those battles are still being, or to be, fought. Feminism is a term/phenomenon/philosophy with various phases and many definitions, some of which I am more sympathetic to than others.

Actually I did grow up in the 60s and 70s and was enormously influenced by second-wave feminism (Germaine Greer was a big revelation in my teens). It wasn't until much later (at least one wave later) that I came to see feminism's shadow side. I don't see this as a simple moral question. There are gains and costs, and their ratio changes in different contexts and periods. But there are certainly reasons why the term feminism is so unpopular outside academic circles.

Spun, I'm pretty much a liberal, but I do understand the points you've made. It's too bad that certain words and phrases used by both sides tend to push the buttons of people on the other end of the political spectrum. These days it's hard for us to be patient with one another. We're all so tense. I might not agree with everything you say, but plainly conservatives as well as liberals have benefited from the cultural changes, and they each get to take ownership of the changes. For example, I'm willing to bet that the great college and Olympic women champions who got there because of Title IX aren't all Democrats. They might not all use the word feminist, but they'd probably all rather be here than back in the good old days.

Part of the "shadow side" that you mention as a result of feminism is something that inevitably happens when an idea spreads out and takes root. As you say, things are lost as well as gained. The process was and is still a good one, but a lot of people have gone a bit crazy with the upheaval.

I'd like to suggest, though, that the coarsening of manners and behavior you mention isn't due completely to feminism. So many other changes happened at the same time that I think influenced this transformation. Even if women had remained out of the work force, for example, guys wanting to have rock-god personas would have ended up behaving just as coarsely. (Remember, Brando came before Gloria Steinem.) Some of the changes in behavior resulted from factors such as the postwar youth surge, the advent of rock and roll, the questioning of old values by everyone, not just women, and the impact of television.

Interestingly, I've noticed that a lot of people have pulled it back a little. Things that doctrinaire feminists yelled at everyone for doing in the early seventies--wearing makeup and fancy clothes, for instance--have become neutral subjects again for a lot of people. Wearing high heels doesn't advertise your life philosophy. I mean, you can't get more liberal than Susan Sarandon, and the woman is a major clothes horse. (Hey, if I looked that good, I'd wear gorgeous clothes, too.) And after all those years of unisex toys and entertainment, the big thing today is Disney princesses. It's a natural correction after things went waaaay off into a new direction.

I steadfastly think that most of the changes brought by the women's movement (use whatever name makes you comfortable) benefited both females and males. Women make good police officers, and men make good nurses. (And women make good nurses, and men make good police officers.) More needs to change, too. If you look around at the world and how so many women have to live, it's hard to say that feminism has gone too far.

This stuff is hard to sort out because everyone gets to take part and put in his/her two cents' worth. And there are millions of us...billions, even. When did we ever think all alike about anything, even something we love? (If you need other examples, please see arguments about Patrick Chan, elsewhere on this site....)
But it's so great to have a place to talk about these things and thrash them out.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Gosh, what a lovely example of liberal tolerance of other viewpoints. This thread is a hymn to feminist achievements but one small word of dissent is unbearable to you. Must absolutely everyone see things exactly the way you do?

I would appreciate your not putting opinions in my mouth, Dragonlady.

This thread began as a comment about the term "ladies" in skating. That is not an issue I get steamed up about. I think contemporary society's rejection of the idea of "ladies" and "gentlemen" is symptomatic of larger social changes. I don't like the coarsening of male-female relationships, the sacrifice of the idea of sexual difference, the default feminist suspicion of masculinity, the rise in female violence, the decline of marriage and rise of single-parenthood, the declining birth rate, or the normalization of prostitution and of abortion or child-murder, as earlier feminists quaintly called it (http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm#sbanthony).

I am grateful for and have benefited from the battles fought by earlier feminists including the ones you mentioned, and there are places in the world where those battles are still being, or to be, fought. Feminism is a term/phenomenon/philosophy with various phases and many definitions, some of which I am more sympathetic to than others.

Actually I did grow up in the 60s and 70s and was enormously influenced by second-wave feminism (Germaine Greer was a big revelation in my teens). It wasn't until much later (at least one wave later) that I came to see feminism's shadow side. I don't see this as a simple moral question. There are gains and costs, and their ratio changes in different contexts and periods. But there are certainly reasons why the term feminism is so unpopular outside academic circles.

Spun!:thumbsup: Thank you! I wouldn't have said it so well! I agree with everything you said except the "abortion" which I'm a little liberal on this subject.

And I think that one of the consequences or the "shadow side" of this continuing fighting for feminism is one of the reasons contributed in the rising of homosexuality.:p
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
And I think that one of the consequences or the "shadow side" of this continuing fighting for feminism is one of the reasons contributed in the rising of homosexuality.:p

Reeeallly off topic, but since you brought it up...

I don't think there's a rise in homosexual desire, but rather some increase in the number of individuals who choose to act on that desire and a much larger increase in the number who publicly acknowledge this aspect of their sexuality . . . which is quite the opposite of a "shadow" side. YMMV
 

Lilith11

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
I fail to see how a supposed "rise" in homosexuality is a bad thing necessarily. For one, it just means that people are more willing to acknowledge that side of themselves rather than suffer in silence or "in the closet." Furthermore, your statement seems to imply homosexuality is a negative.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I'm sorry, but this image is too tempting to keep to myself. Does this imply that if women weren't allowed to hold certain jobs, Johnny Weir would be straight?

I don't mean to laugh at you, Bluebonnet. But it seems unlikely that there's a connection between feminism and any change in the incidence of homosexuality. I'm sure there was always the same percentage of gay men and women, but they kept quiet at the cost of their careers and sometimes their lives. In any case, I hope that men aren't that malleable, and that whatever their natural instincts are, they're not so easily transformed.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I'm sorry, but this image is too tempting to keep to myself. Does this imply that if women weren't allowed to hold certain jobs, Johnny Weir would be straight?

I don't mean to laugh at you, Bluebonnet. But it seems unlikely that there's a connection between feminism and any change in the incidence of homosexuality. I'm sure there was always the same percentage of gay men and women, but they kept quiet at the cost of their careers and sometimes their lives. In any case, I hope that men aren't that malleable, and that whatever their natural instincts are, they're not so easily transformed.

You've made a wrong connection, Olympia. Anyone who has normal IQ would know this comparison would lead to a laughable conclusion. To make Johnny Weir connection is ridiculous. There are certain people who were born with it. I won't deny them. But I believe that there are quite a lot of people, especially men, who choose to live certain life style because of their environment in which they grow up lead them or pushed them to.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I do apologize.

But my point is that innate identity isn't so easily transformed.

Now, if you want to say that men in general are wimpier nowadays than they used to be, that's something different from sexuality. Certainly fewer men know how to do the traditional male things such as working with power tools and defending their family physically. But isn't that also an effect of more sedentary and more urbanized (and suburbanized) lifestyle? These days, fewer men work with their hands, and their fathers don't generally teach them (sometimes for lack of time) the traditional skills, just as girls don't learn the traditional skills of cooking and cleaning from their mothers. That I'd agree with. And I don't know what the answer is. My mother worked (she had to bring me up by herself), and she never taught me how to cook anything. I regret that, as I regret not learning how to sew from her (I'm self-taught). There was just no time for that kind of thing in our household. I'm sure that's even more common today, because so many women work outside the home.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Apology accepted.:) I know you are a nice person.

I wish women in general be sweeter, softer, more humble. In one word, like Spun Silver said, more lady-like. The world would be much warmer and nicer. Look at those mothers who dump their children, or even kill their own fresh blood. It's horrible!!!
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Thanks, Bluebonnet.

I too wish for less coarseness in society, both from men and from women. It's become fashionable, for instance, for athletes to trash-talk about rivals, as if that shows their strength. And the crude curse words I hear on the street from people of all ages! Often in the presence of young children. I don't think this kind of behavior advances anyone's cause.

At least in matters of manners and how others are treated, we each have the chance to do our part. That's one thing we don't have to leave for the experts. I have to say, I've met a lot of young people recently (early to mid-twenties) who are extremely considerate, and that reassures me that there are people out there who value such traits. So don't give up yet!
 

callalily

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Being from Canada (quite a liberal society), some posts on this thread have surprised me, but it is interesting to hear your comments.

Those of you who feel that feminism has caused difficulties for woman (and men), could you explain that a bit more?
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Wow am I glad I did not read Bluebonnet's absurd comments earlier in the day when my mood was worse. Too bad there's not a an emoticon employing a particular digit to sum up my response. Have we made no progress in the last 30 years? How many people have to suffer and die before people realize being gay is NOT a choice. That same sort of inane logic is being used in placed like Uganda and Iran punish gay men and women into leading "normal" lives. Choosing to deny that fact is what leads to unsafe actions, ruptured families, depression and suicide all over the world. For God's sake, we had a month long thread last year about the negative effects of bullying which has an outsized impact on gay teens who are made to feel that they are not normal.

As a gay man, I find the assertion that anyone would willingly choose to subject themselves to be legally fired in 29 states and denied housing in just as many, along with bullying, assault, being shunned by family, maligned by politicians and religious leaders etc. to utterly ridiculous. Now are there some people who are genuinely bisexual? Yes, but they should also be treated with respect and not subjected to casually tossed around stereotypes. Pick up a psychology journal one of these days and actually read it. It might enlighten you. This subject has been settled against your speculative opinion for decades.

All of this talk about going back to some mythical time when everyone was more genteel and women were ladies is just a little too precious and reactionary. The good old days were never as great as anyone would like to believe. It's just a lazy defense mechanism meant to react to changes in the contemporary world that are a too uncomfortable to face head on. It's the same thinking to leads to people to want to return to "strict constructionist" or "originalist" interpretations of the constitution. Well being black and gay and entirely incapable of keeping my opinion to myself, I certainly don't want to go back to 1789 thank you very much. I'd wager a guess that most other people, especially women, would agree with me if they actually stopped to think about what going backward would really mean.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
One great thing about a site like this is that people get to encounter people who aren't like them. It has aspects of living in a city, or going to college. So many of one's tidy thoughts and views are thrown into disarray by the reality of actual people, their real nature or their experiences.

There were indeed a lot of good things in the good old days that are now lost. The problem was that not everyone got to partake of them. The things that were lost, like good manners, we can work to restore, and I believe we should. The things that have been gained should never be given up.

The question one needs to ask oneself is, "Could I live like that?" Would any of us choose, as jcoates says, to live in fear of losing one's job or being bullied? Would any of us choose to be completely financially dependent on another person, as women still are in many parts of the world and as we were in our own countries a hundred years ago? Then if it's not okay for thee and me, why is it okay for anyone else?

Let's let someone from those times speak for herself. I was thinking of Sojourner Truth's speech last night after I closed my computer. For those of you not familiar with American History, Sojourner Truth was an abolitionist and a speaker for women's rights in the mid-1800s. She was born Isabella Baumfree, a slave, and gained her own freedom. In 1851, she gave a speech at a women's rights convention. Elements of the speech may not be exactly as delivered, because no one wrote it down right away, but her words must have been made of fire, because no one who heard her forgot their effect. Here's the bit that always gets to me:

"That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody helps me any best place. And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm. I have plowed, I have planted and I have gathered into barns. And no man could head me. And ain't I a woman? I could work as much, and eat as much as man--when I could get it--and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne children and seen most of them sold into slavery, and when I cried out with a mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me. And ain't I a woman?"
 
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let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
That's an interesting and important point, let's talk, about the fact that the distinction between "ladies" and "women" is not present in other languages.
In fact it is, it is дама or леди in Russian for the English "lady". In Japanese I assume it is 婦人(fuijin=lady, adult female). But these words are not used in sports. The neutral 男子(males) and 女子(females) are used instead. As for "Ladies" in FS, it's all the matter of historical usage that took place much earlier than the American feminism showed up. The whole topic of this thread seems like an innocent trolling to me, or much ado about nothing.

I'm more bothered by the negative impacts of feminism on women. And men.
And on men: the tendency is- the most discriminated person in the modern north american society is a white heterosexual 30yo male without special needs. To be fair, feminism is not the only reason of such an outcome.
There are certain people who were born with it. I won't deny them. But I believe that there are quite a lot of people, especially men, who choose to live certain life style because of their environment in which they grow up lead them or pushed them to.

How many people have to suffer and die before people realize being gay is NOT a choice.
You are both "right". Because nobody knows the clear answer on the question what causes sexual orientation. Too many ongoing researches, and most of them are based on too low numbers of subjects being researched. But that's not the point I am making here, as a straight female and specially for you. If someone tells me "You chose to be straight when you found out that the alternative exists". Fine, I did! Or, if someone tells me "You didn't choose it, you were born like that." Fine, I didn't! The point is- I don't care, because I see nothing shameful in what and who I am. You may try to do that too.:)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The whole topic of this thread seems like an innocent trolling to me, or much ado about nothing.

I agree that the name of the discipline by itself is not a significant issue.

The point is- I don't care, because I see nothing shameful in what and who I am. You may try to do that too.:)

Easier said than done if authority figures, people in your daily life, random strangers make a point of telling you it is shameful, and in many times and places illegal to act on. Lucky heterosexual you, not to have to worry about all those negative messages about what and who you are.

And to come back to the feminism issue, lucky girls in much of the world in the 21st century not to have to deal with as many messages about the inherent inferiority of women that permeated popular culture even when I was growing up.

It's easy to say "I want things to be the way they used to be" if you identify with people who benefitted by the way they used to be (and had more access to documenting their experience -- history is written by the winners after all). Great if you get to be a privileged lady. Not so great if you were one of the majority who'd be lucky to make a living washing the ladies' underthings.
 
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