leave no stone unturned
In greek figure skaring disciplines are also described as men and women singles, pairs and ice dance, and while there is another word for lady, it is not used for sports.
I cannot tell you how deeply offensive I find this comment. You liked it better when women couldn't vote, own property, inherit? You think that women SHOULD earn less than a man? That men should be given a job over a more qualified woman? You think that women should be subservient to men? Perhaps you should have grown up in the 50's and 60's, when men could do as they pleased and women put up with it.
Originally Posted by Spun Silver
Rooting for the divas with Kwanford
Gosh, what a lovely example of liberal tolerance of other viewpoints. This thread is a hymn to feminist achievements but one small word of dissent is unbearable to you. Must absolutely everyone see things exactly the way you do?
I would appreciate your not putting opinions in my mouth, Dragonlady.
This thread began as a comment about the term "ladies" in skating. That is not an issue I get steamed up about. I think contemporary society's rejection of the idea of "ladies" and "gentlemen" is symptomatic of larger social changes. I don't like the coarsening of male-female relationships, the sacrifice of the idea of sexual difference, the default feminist suspicion of masculinity, the rise in female violence, the decline of marriage and rise of single-parenthood, the declining birth rate, or the normalization of prostitution and of abortion or child-murder, as earlier feminists quaintly called it (http://www.feministsforlife.org/hist....htm#sbanthony).
I am grateful for and have benefited from the battles fought by earlier feminists including the ones you mentioned, and there are places in the world where those battles are still being, or to be, fought. Feminism is a term/phenomenon/philosophy with various phases and many definitions, some of which I am more sympathetic to than others.
Actually I did grow up in the 60s and 70s and was enormously influenced by second-wave feminism (Germaine Greer was a big revelation in my teens). It wasn't until much later (at least one wave later) that I came to see feminism's shadow side. I don't see this as a simple moral question. There are gains and costs, and their ratio changes in different contexts and periods. But there are certainly reasons why the term feminism is so unpopular outside academic circles.
Originally Posted by Spun Silver
One thing about "ladies" in figure skating is that it colors our expectation of their off-ice behavior. Ladies don't cuss, ladies don't boast, ladies don't call attention to themselves with belligerent comments. Men (but not gentlemen) do these things with gusto.
When a male figure skater pops off we simply smile to ourselves and say, "Oh that Johnny," or, "Oh that Patrick," or "Oh, that Evgeni."
But when a lady skater is asked by an interviewer, "So, how do you feel about losing this competition?" we expect her to say, "I will go back to the rink and work harder. I just want to skate and have fun." (Translation: "F-off, a------")
Spun, I'm pretty much a liberal, but I do understand the points you've made. It's too bad that certain words and phrases used by both sides tend to push the buttons of people on the other end of the political spectrum. These days it's hard for us to be patient with one another. We're all so tense. I might not agree with everything you say, but plainly conservatives as well as liberals have benefited from the cultural changes, and they each get to take ownership of the changes. For example, I'm willing to bet that the great college and Olympic women champions who got there because of Title IX aren't all Democrats. They might not all use the word feminist, but they'd probably all rather be here than back in the good old days.
Originally Posted by Spun Silver
Part of the "shadow side" that you mention as a result of feminism is something that inevitably happens when an idea spreads out and takes root. As you say, things are lost as well as gained. The process was and is still a good one, but a lot of people have gone a bit crazy with the upheaval.
I'd like to suggest, though, that the coarsening of manners and behavior you mention isn't due completely to feminism. So many other changes happened at the same time that I think influenced this transformation. Even if women had remained out of the work force, for example, guys wanting to have rock-god personas would have ended up behaving just as coarsely. (Remember, Brando came before Gloria Steinem.) Some of the changes in behavior resulted from factors such as the postwar youth surge, the advent of rock and roll, the questioning of old values by everyone, not just women, and the impact of television.
Interestingly, I've noticed that a lot of people have pulled it back a little. Things that doctrinaire feminists yelled at everyone for doing in the early seventies--wearing makeup and fancy clothes, for instance--have become neutral subjects again for a lot of people. Wearing high heels doesn't advertise your life philosophy. I mean, you can't get more liberal than Susan Sarandon, and the woman is a major clothes horse. (Hey, if I looked that good, I'd wear gorgeous clothes, too.) And after all those years of unisex toys and entertainment, the big thing today is Disney princesses. It's a natural correction after things went waaaay off into a new direction.
I steadfastly think that most of the changes brought by the women's movement (use whatever name makes you comfortable) benefited both females and males. Women make good police officers, and men make good nurses. (And women make good nurses, and men make good police officers.) More needs to change, too. If you look around at the world and how so many women have to live, it's hard to say that feminism has gone too far.
This stuff is hard to sort out because everyone gets to take part and put in his/her two cents' worth. And there are millions of us...billions, even. When did we ever think all alike about anything, even something we love? (If you need other examples, please see arguments about Patrick Chan, elsewhere on this site....)
But it's so great to have a place to talk about these things and thrash them out.
Last edited by Olympia; 01-03-2012 at 11:21 PM.
Reeeallly off topic, but since you brought it up...
Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
I don't think there's a rise in homosexual desire, but rather some increase in the number of individuals who choose to act on that desire and a much larger increase in the number who publicly acknowledge this aspect of their sexuality . . . which is quite the opposite of a "shadow" side. YMMV
I fail to see how a supposed "rise" in homosexuality is a bad thing necessarily. For one, it just means that people are more willing to acknowledge that side of themselves rather than suffer in silence or "in the closet." Furthermore, your statement seems to imply homosexuality is a negative.
I'm sorry, but this image is too tempting to keep to myself. Does this imply that if women weren't allowed to hold certain jobs, Johnny Weir would be straight?
I don't mean to laugh at you, Bluebonnet. But it seems unlikely that there's a connection between feminism and any change in the incidence of homosexuality. I'm sure there was always the same percentage of gay men and women, but they kept quiet at the cost of their careers and sometimes their lives. In any case, I hope that men aren't that malleable, and that whatever their natural instincts are, they're not so easily transformed.
Last edited by Olympia; 01-04-2012 at 12:45 AM.
You've made a wrong connection, Olympia. Anyone who has normal IQ would know this comparison would lead to a laughable conclusion. To make Johnny Weir connection is ridiculous. There are certain people who were born with it. I won't deny them. But I believe that there are quite a lot of people, especially men, who choose to live certain life style because of their environment in which they grow up lead them or pushed them to.
Originally Posted by Olympia
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-05-2012 at 12:48 PM.
I do apologize.
But my point is that innate identity isn't so easily transformed.
Now, if you want to say that men in general are wimpier nowadays than they used to be, that's something different from sexuality. Certainly fewer men know how to do the traditional male things such as working with power tools and defending their family physically. But isn't that also an effect of more sedentary and more urbanized (and suburbanized) lifestyle? These days, fewer men work with their hands, and their fathers don't generally teach them (sometimes for lack of time) the traditional skills, just as girls don't learn the traditional skills of cooking and cleaning from their mothers. That I'd agree with. And I don't know what the answer is. My mother worked (she had to bring me up by herself), and she never taught me how to cook anything. I regret that, as I regret not learning how to sew from her (I'm self-taught). There was just no time for that kind of thing in our household. I'm sure that's even more common today, because so many women work outside the home.
Apology accepted. I know you are a nice person.
I wish women in general be sweeter, softer, more humble. In one word, like Spun Silver said, more lady-like. The world would be much warmer and nicer. Look at those mothers who dump their children, or even kill their own fresh blood. It's horrible!!!
I too wish for less coarseness in society, both from men and from women. It's become fashionable, for instance, for athletes to trash-talk about rivals, as if that shows their strength. And the crude curse words I hear on the street from people of all ages! Often in the presence of young children. I don't think this kind of behavior advances anyone's cause.
At least in matters of manners and how others are treated, we each have the chance to do our part. That's one thing we don't have to leave for the experts. I have to say, I've met a lot of young people recently (early to mid-twenties) who are extremely considerate, and that reassures me that there are people out there who value such traits. So don't give up yet!
Being from Canada (quite a liberal society), some posts on this thread have surprised me, but it is interesting to hear your comments.
Those of you who feel that feminism has caused difficulties for woman (and men), could you explain that a bit more?