I LOVE Gilles/Piorier's program. It's different with element of surprises. Trovil and Dean's choreo was genius. They choreo C/P's last year program (which I also love) as well. Ralph/Hill, sorry, I fell asleep half way.
First of all, whether W/P medal or not this year, has nothing to do with G/P. Second of all, how do you know what will happen next year? Why would that be a crying shame if G/P beat W/P with better skate or program etc?
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
Paul/Islam and Ralph/Hill were both quite strong. It's ashame that they won't get many opportunities on the world stage to show off. I'd love it if SC split the 4CC and Worlds teams between these two like Japan did Olympics/Worlds in 2010 for Suzuki and Nakano (the latter retired, so it was moot). Actually, if my hunch is correct, I'd love it if these teams country hopped elsewhere because that's how they'll get those international opportunities. I think Ralph/Hill had a good program, but the skate wasn't as great as it could've been, admittedly. High National 80s is about right. I thought Paul/Islam were tremendous though. Her emotional fluidity is insane - the way she expresses feelings and the music with her face and fingertips is heartwrenching. They are so beautiful together - he leads her so well. Now that they're exploring themselves further and not just being V/M clones (which I thought they were, regardless of the truth behind it), I cannot wait to see them grow
Weaver/Poje have finally, finally cast of the demons of the past. I thought this skate was slightly lesser than at the GPF, but it's a program that's unlocked them as skaters. Their SD last season was the suggestion that Krylova/Camerlengo had a key, but this season they've truly stepped up to the top rank of dance. I complained so long last season about Moulin Rouge. I defended C/P from those that figured W/P should be beating them hands down. "Je Suis Malade" connects with them and connects with me in a way that they haven't in the past. I truly, truly hope that my fears are unfounded and that they continue to skate with the full support of the federation. I'd hate to have to join the brigade I disagreed with just one year ago.
Last night, Virtue and Moir weren't on form. They weren't skating as one. Tonight, they were. I love "Funny Face." I've come to the conclusion that I will watch these two skate anything, but watching them skating something as personal to them as this is just a joy. The way they embody the characters, the movement, the poise of the Donen masterpiece is just bewitching. The minor changes add to the program in sublime ways. And that final lift.... a glorious glorious moment - this team is magic for me. I love them so much, I'm torn between wanting to remember them at their perfect peak (Olympic Mahler) and wanting them to continue, regardless of the possible medal loss (no, they're not winning Worlds this year - sorry guys). When people criticize Suguri or Plushenko, it's always with harshness of those that are disappointed that they can't remember them as they want to. The work V/M have done will stand. That won't change. Nothing changes the fact that they won the Olympic gold in 2010, as much as losing ground (and I have no idea if they are at this point) might feel otherwise.
jett, to answer your question....
We're seeing two roads at these Nationals. The first road is the one taken by Gilles/Porier. It's the road of interesting tricks (and that curve lift is a beauty) and getting the level fours. The other road, the one taken by Weaver/Poje and Paul/Islam is more difficult, because it's not at all clear it'll be successful. It's growing together first. It's not about big tricks but about finding the right wavelength for the team. It's working on weaknesses, not merely disguising them (a Lane trait - to whit, connection and posture). It's about dance as dance, for crying out loud. If the road we see G/P do is the road that's rewarded, that growth we see, that slow improvement won't be attempted as often. It'll be like watching Khoklova/Novitski everywhere.
Lets make this clear - that was not a 100 skate. That was not a 100 skate internationally. That was not a 100 skate nationally (presume 10% inflation, as has been said in the past).
Gilles/Poirier.. where to begin. Lets start with the positives. They clearly like each other. They like skating with each other. I don't see the on ice chemistry that others seem to, but off ice it's obvious that their relationship is solid. It'll provide them a good ground to work on. If this scored say 85, I'd have said "high score, look forward to more." It wouldn't be a big deal. But to see the judges give STRAIGHT 3s for the twizzles? To see only three ones, the rest twos and threes for GOES in general? To see them getting eights as if eights were candy? They got 8.17 for Linking Movement/Footwork. Seriously? That doens't make any sense to me. Chanflation is less egregiously ridiculous.
jett, the reason I say this is because I feel the narrative surrounding Crone, Porier, Gilles and the Lane school has been percolating for quite some time (since around the Olympics, imo). The way Crone has been shifted out of the conversation. The way that all of a sudden, a first year team is scoring 100s. W/P just broke a 100 for the first time the same night G/P did. Doesn't that sound insane? C/P weren't able to score that high. But further to that, Skate Canada has a history of supporting those who might not necessarily deserve it. One of the interesting things about Canadian ice dance is the diversity of dance schools. Wing/Lowe. Paul McKintosh. Mr. Mitchell. And not to mention Krylova/Camerlengo, Bourne, and Zoueva/Shpilband. A concentrated outpouring of support on one school doesn't benefit the sport. The Duchesnays switched countries because they felt that they weren't supported (they didn't train in Ontario, like most teams). Tracy Wainman was pushed superhard in the 80s. Shawn Sawyer mentioned that Skate Canada wasn't supportive of his decision to skate last season (and imagine if he hadn't gotten the opportunity to deliver the LP at Nationals he did) - they prefered Reynolds at first (he was the only other Canadian to get two GP spots right off the bat). I found it bizarre that a couple of the skaters last season at Nationals that earned the spot for Worlds (Samson, Sawyer) decided not to go and I did frankly wonder if SC pressured them to skip.
So, if W/P are able to medal in Nice, they'll no longer be the team that "just missed" for Skate Canada. They didn't just miss a National Championship (last season). They aren't the team that missed the Olympics when it was handed to them. They aren't the team that bombed 4CC after being in a medal position. They aren't the team that fell off the podium at the GPF (10/11), Skate America (2010). That's who I believe they are to Skate Canada. But now.... this is the team that beat the Russian #1s Bobrova/Soloviev on their home turf. Twice. If they medal in Nice, that means they withstood the desire to see P/B medal at home (which, frankly, is what I want to happen as well, I really like what they've done this year). Should G/P improve to the point where they deserve to beat W/P, I will stand up and applaud. But if they're pushed into the limelight without the requisite growth (especially from her).... well, I think Davis/White beating Virtue/Moir in London will be easier to stomach.
It was a thrilling day for me. Patrick Chan's epic short program, once again delivering a withering thwack to naysayers and haters. Duhamel/Radford finding the form they needed. Dube/Wolfe surprising everyone and placing second. These skaters reminding me how awesome Canadian ice dance truly is.
Your long blah blah blah about G/P etc drama...not reading it. Just find your "future" prediction is just ridiculous, nothing but just showing your bias toward certain team. It has no merit whatsoever. You basically call someone guilty before you even know the nature of the case.
Thank you for your erudite response.
Originally Posted by jettasian
Constable , Costume Police
Pogue ,thanks for dragging me out of my funk.. I agree with so much you've said.
I've been wrestling with my thoughts since last night ( closed myself down by mistake and lost a lengthy post ) Now I have to walk my dogs.....and wrestle with my wordpad a bit..and I'll be back in business.
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 01-22-2012 at 12:35 AM.
Originally Posted by colleen o'neill
Glad to hear it. I was missing your posts.
Come now, that's a little out of line, don't you think? If you're allowed to express your opinion, so is everyone else. If you choose not to read, that's your business. No need to be rude about it. Furthermore, I fail to see how your comments lack the bias that you are accusing the rest of us of having.
Originally Posted by jettasian
The comments being made about G/P are not without evidence, either. They managed to score within 6 points of W/P, who despite what your opinion of them may be, are the 4th ranked team in the world right now. They were a mere 11 points shy of the olympic ice dance champions, who just broke the world record in the FD last month. All of that doesn't strike you as a little odd?
Last edited by skatingfan04; 01-22-2012 at 12:41 AM.
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
Virtue/Moir were really off in this event though; you can't deny that. An extended lift deduction in the FD, not getting the highest levels on their elements in the SD and the FD, the major stumble in the SD twizzle. Their Olympic title should not automatically entitle them to super high scores despite having mistakes.
Originally Posted by skatingfan04
ITA agree - jettasian your bias is definitely showing and as SF04 points out you are ignoring the stats. If she was his equal, then maybe, but he pulls her around the ice . No way they should be that close to W/P. Their marks should be much closer to R/H and P/I.
Originally Posted by skatingfan04
I really don't understand what the G/P love fest with the judges is based on. It started earlier in hte season and has continued, basically on the backs of R/H and P/I.
Last edited by wasabi; 01-22-2012 at 07:57 AM.
What can I say.
I am glad V/M skated clean in Free. I like their free program and I hope they will improve it and will win their next competition.
I very much enjoyed W/P. Their program is filled with such emotions. And their lifts are so difficult but they skate so well that one does not see the difficulty of the program. On the other hand with G/P you see that the lifts are difficult. And that's also why G/P should be much further behind W/P. It's not that I did not like their program because it was fun to watch, but they were not clean and even I could see the mistakes they made.
AS for Paul/Islam and Ralph/Hill - I prefer Paul/Islam free program but I enjoyed both.
In fact the only complain in free dance I have is with high marks G/P received.
Oh, and I like Orford/Wiliams. I think in two years they might be our national bronze medalist team.
Last edited by katia; 01-22-2012 at 01:35 AM.
Constable , Costume Police
Well, I'm chagrined. ( And that's being restrained )It's been difficult for me to sort out all of the things that weren't sitting well with me, but I'll try to put it all in order.
It's completely bizarre that G/P should have the bronze medal. I heartily concur with everyone who's pointed out the very noticeable difference in their abilities . Generally speaking , up to a certain degree , it's a fine thing when a choreographer can accentuate the skaters' strengths while down-playing any weaknesses they may have..but there's a point beyond which it can become too much smoke and mirrors , and needs to be called. I feel we're seeing a case of that with G/P ..and the judges are supposed to be able to see through it , not swallow it hook , line and sinker.
That a team who have been together less than a year should wind up only 11 points behind the 5th place couple in the world , and only 17. 48 behind V/M ... simply defies belief. ( We're not talking about the dance equivalent of Volosozhar and Trankov..Our eyes should tell us we're not even looking at the equivalent of Chock and Bates. ) 100 for that FD..ought to be embarrassing.
You can say ..Oh well, they can't go to world's anyway , so no harm done..but I don't know how R/H, P/I and even O/W might feel about that. ( more about O/W later..)
G/P are definitely being pushed and politics are being played , we just don't know exactly by whom. But it's all too obvious. We saw the propoganda campaign begin immediately when C/P split up. I don't know how large a movement it is, or who all is involved . I don't know if those who are pushing them think they can target W/P for next year.. I would hope W/P would be out of range because of their well deserved international recognition. ( Remains to be seen )
But the other 3 teams I've mentioned might miss out on international assignments ... and perhaps even funding next year in the case of O/W.
G/P's SD was lacking in latin feeling , sprinkled with little details evoking other dance teams' current SDs ( a bit reminiscent of of C/L here , a bit reminiscent of P/B there )..not wrong exactly , but tacky...and to me they don't benefit by the comparison. They may well have benefited from skating so early , when they were surrounded by lesser teams..but it's the judges job to not over react. Their expression was superficial..A broad facial expression with this movement, or that ,or when passing the judges , but it didn't seem like the dance was causing their expression. ( This is also noticeable with R/H , whose SD may have been a little overscored, as well IMO ...but nothing like G/P 's was )
Thinking of those 3 teams, R/H ,P/I and O/W ...I have more to say ,that I'll have to say tomorrow, but for now, I just want to say that O/W really suffered by the maddening splitting of the competition for TV. There was slightly less than 2 points separating 4th - 6th , and of those 3 couples , their FD scored highest.. but there were hours between the time the judges saw them and the last flight , not just an ice flood... For the fans ,unless people were watching skatebuzz , O/W weren't seen at all . So here's the link..It really was an excellent Sr. debut.
ETA; Thanks, wasabi
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 01-22-2012 at 04:22 AM.
Wicked Yankee Girl
Colleen, When you do that, go back to the thread, hit the reply button, and then look in the bottom corner of the Reply box. You will see "Restore AutoSave" Click on it, and Voila! There will be most, if not all, of your lost post!
Originally Posted by colleen o'neill
For non Canadians, TSN has the last flight of the Canadian dance championships up, and it is not geoblocked!
Link to the last flight is on the right hand side of the page.
Agreed, but it does mean that they skate with an overall level of quality that is simply unattainable for a new team, no matter how good they may be. That, IMO, is why their scores should be high in comparison. And they didn't make mistakes in the FD, except for the lift extension, which is the score I was referring to.
Originally Posted by museksk8r
Expanding on what colleen o'neil said, I think R/H, P/I and O/W really won't be happy if their back in the same position next year all trying to make the world team with good material and G/P take the spot with another set of mediocre programs. Nor should they be. If G/P deserve to beat them by then, then I will have no problems with any of it. But if the don't, things will really be getting out of hand. Let's hope the latter doesn't happen.
Also, a small correction, colleen. P/I had the 4th highest FD score by about a point over O/W, not the other way around.
Last edited by skatingfan04; 01-22-2012 at 08:54 AM.