Men - Free Program

[let`s talk]

Well, this is the men's division, not ice dance. You won't see many men trying to distinguish a tango-like quad from a waltzy quad.

Well, but this logic leaves the men's filed just hopeless! Luckily, it's not true. A good deal of male skaters in the past and present could and can show the artistic performances and sophiticated presentations than that blah Aranjuez. I won't evet bother to start the list, it's quite long. 200 for doing what others could do years ago and even better is just embarrassing, like the whole chanflation thing itself. It reminds me some soviet economy plan: they told us we must reach those numbers, so we will (forget the quality)!

[Mathman]

^ Lambiel is the only recent skater that I would say actually tried to display different forms of dance in his routines.

[skatinginbc]

Lambiel I wish he had won the Olympics with a perfect performance. I thought he had the potential of becoming the "best skater ever".

[SkateFiguring]

It may be a taboo to proclaim Patrick Chan's artistry but I will do it.

There have been and there are many great artistic skaters and I admire them, but I dare say, none can do what Patrick can do presentation and performance wise his way. Many can skate cute, or joyous, or seductive/sexy, funny, sad, etc. They have quick dance steps, dramatic gestures, facial emoting, etc., but, as in life, elegance and sophistication are darn near impossible to fake. Patrick's skating and performance are just that, elegant and sophisticated. His Phantom Of The Opera was extremely passionate and dramatic while Aranjuez is majestic and sad at the same time. His skating and the music carry the audience along across the ice. Name me a skater who could skate these programs? And portray these emotions with such grand skating, not just acting, skills? Like the rest, Patrick can do fun show programs and even a macho cheese now that he's all grown up, but to put out such grand and emotional competitive programs with the highest degree of difficulty, on speed unmatched by anyone, his artistry is unique and beyond the capacities of most.

I'm not here to declare Chan the most artistic skater. It is subjective and many are great and unique. There is no point for contest as we want to enjoy and admire them all. But to call Chan inferior artistically is untrue and unfair, if one would just open the mind and eyes to really watch him do his magic. And the best is yet to come from him.

[jettasian]

Well, but this logic leaves the men's filed just hopeless! Luckily, it's not true. A good deal of male skaters in the past and present could and can show the artistic performances and sophiticated presentations than that blah Aranjuez. I won't evet bother to start the list, it's quite long. 200 for doing what others could do years ago and even better is just embarrassing, like the whole chanflation thing itself. It reminds me some soviet economy plan: they told us we must reach those numbers, so we will (forget the quality)!

List them (the bold part), who are the others?

As for the blah Aranjuez, of course, it's blah. I mean, why would a hater likes anything Chan does? That'd not make any sense.

[jettasian]

^ Lambiel is the only recent skater that I would say actually tried to display different forms of dance in his routines.

But his jumps were never that good.

Lambiel I wish he had won the Olympics with a perfect performance. I thought he had the potential of becoming the "best skater ever".

Did you ask Stojko?

[skatinginbc]

There is no point for contest (regarding artistry)

Then there is no point for figure skating competitions where artistry is assessed with an interval scale.

as in life, elegance and sophistication are darn near impossible to fake. Patrick's skating and performance are just that, elegant and sophisticated.

His skating and choreography were indeed sophisticated, but his performance and presentation were not necessarily elegant. As you said, elegance is darn near impossible to fake, that's why Patrick's elegance sometimes came across as "dishonest" (I learn that expression from So You think you can dance). Don't get me wrong. I would have given him 9.25, which is very high. It is just not perfect yet.

Name me a skater who could skate these programs? And portray these emotions with such grand skating, not just acting, skills?...his artistry is unique

There is something wrong with that kind of logic. First of all, everyone is unique and therefore it is always true to claim that a person's artistry is unique and that there is no way one can duplicate the performance of another. Secondly, mixing skating skills with other components (e.g., presentation) is in direct violation of the spirit of IJS. "His artistry is excellent because his skating skill is excellent" is not convincing.

[skatinginbc]

Did you ask Stojko?

I'll call him if you give me his phone #.

[ImaginaryPogue]

But it is figure skating. Shouldn't that underpin everything in the first place?

[skatinginbc]

But it is figure skating. Shouldn't that underpin everything in the first place?

Yes, but not 100%. We are arguing whether one should receive perfect 10s or not in PE and IN.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Oh, that's easy. IMO, Chan didn't deserve tens for any PCS of this skate.

[SkateFiguring]

Yes, but not 100%. We are arguing whether one should receive perfect 10s or not in PE and IN.

I wasn't arguing about his PE and IN scores. I gave my contrary opinion on his artistry which is usually automatically denied as if it's an undebatable fact even his fans feel obliged to go along. As for scores, I feel with the judges and many commentators.

[wallylutz]

I'll call him if you give me his phone #.

He is actually pretty easy to find, especially these days because he coaches. He is also quite present these days at various events, especially competitions. Once, I remember at the Vancouver Olympics, I saw him walking on the streets of Vancouver talking on his cell phone. No one "mobbed" him, which wouldn't be the case 10 years ago.

[SkateFiguring]

Then there is no point for figure skating competitions where artistry is assessed with an interval scale.

How could you jump to "no point for competition" from my view on subjective artistry. "Artistry" comprises less than 30% of the total scores, especially less for programs with high TES values and there are guidelines for judges to go by, and they can score different skaters equally if they feel so.

His skating and choreography were indeed sophisticated, but his performance and presentation were not necessarily elegant. As you said, elegance is darn near impossible to fake, that's why Patrick's elegance sometimes came across as "dishonest" (I learn that expression from So You think you can dance). Don't get me wrong. I would have given him 9.25, which is very high. It is just not perfect yet.

That's exactly what I mean by subjective. It's your view and your score, which don't equal God given Truth.

There is something wrong with that kind of logic. First of all, everyone is unique and therefore it is always true to claim that a person's artistry is unique and that there is no way one can duplicate the performance of another.

You cut out the rest of my sentence - beyond the capacities of most. There are plenty of generic performances and a superior skater can skate most of the easier and simpler programs even if the expressions may be a little different, in most likelihood better than the inferior skaters who perform the programs. The inferior skaters OTOH wouldn't be able to demonstrate the same artistry if they have to skate a program of raised difficulty as they have to focus on staying up or struggling to do the moves in slow motion. Artistry despite extreme difficulty should be appreciated and rewarded with higher scores.

Secondly, mixing skating skills with other components (e.g., presentation) is in direct violation of the spirit of IJS. "His artistry is excellent because his skating skill is excellent" is not convincing.

This is like saying a pianist's better interpretation of a composition due to his superior skills doesn't count. Many factors contribute to good interpretation and performance of a figure skating program, including natural factors like body type, limbs, flexibility, even facial beauty or structure for expressions. Then there are innate or learned musicality, innate or learned rhythm as well as dance training, fitness, etc. but most importantly, skating skills, because it is figure skating. The artistry is to be demonstrated with skating skills. Else we could put a fine actor to stand on ice or a fine dancer in non-slip shoes to express emotions better than every skater.

[sunny0760]

His skating and choreography were indeed sophisticated, but his performance and presentation were not necessarily elegant. As you said, elegance is darn near impossible to fake, that's why Patrick's elegance sometimes came across as "dishonest" (I learn that expression from So You think you can dance). Don't get me wrong. I would have given him 9.25, which is very high. It is just not perfect yet.

Sorry, I just don't understand how Chan's performances can be described 'fake' or 'dishonest'. Some peolple may dislike his skating or his personality or both(as you see in this board and others and I know you are not one of them) but fake elegance? What do you see what I never see? I see honest atheleticism, pure quality skating which only can come from talent and long years' hard work.

As for PCS, my observation is 1) PCS for some skaters tend to be getting higher and higher each year, 2) PE is more or less influenced by clean skates. If you skate clean, your PE will go up, even though judges also care about your presentation ability or the reputation of your performing ability. 3) If top skaters make less mistakes than usual, in most cases, their PE and IN points are higher than their own SS/TR. Judges are more generous when they judge PE/IN. Therefore, we see many 9 or even 10 points in PE/IN. Especially, IN seems to be considered the most subjective so they can be the most generous about IN. 4) About CH, judges tend to give higher points to the programs with more choreography accompanied by speed and ice coverage, not exactly to the better program with regard to the artistic sense.

You seem to think Chan deserves higher points in SS/TR but not so much in PE/IN. OK. Many people would think so too. However, when I see Chan's protocols, I usually notice his IN is a little higher than his SS and of course, his TR which is always a little lower than his SS. If he skates clean or cleanish, his PE will go up.

Anyway, artistic, elegant, graceful are not my favorite words in FS because they are so subjective. FS should be accessed as a sports, whose beauty goes along with technique, strength and control. I somewhat understand why judges give more generous PE and IN in many cases. A skater's SS cannot be 100% perfect but IN includes something you cannot measure with numbers. Artistry cannot be measured...

However, I generally don't agree with 10s in PCS. Even if this is Nationals, this kind of judging can spread into internaional competitions. I wonder if some judges think 10s are equal to 6.0s? In the 6.0 era, they just decided 5.8 or 5.9 or 6.0 for top skaters. Now, 7.50, 7.75, 8.00, 8.25, 8.50, 8.75.... 10.00. 10.00 should be really, really rare.

For example, a skater skated really well so judges gave the heavenly skater three 10s last year but this year, the same skater improved even more. Should judges give him/her 10.25? Oh, they gave 14 year old Nadia Comaneci 10.00. Great. Chan certainly wowed me this time but I was not wowed by many 10s in his protocols.