Page 14 of 15 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 LastLast
Results 196 to 210 of 213

Thread: Men - Free Program

  1. #196
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    The Brink of Insanity
    Posts
    667
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    TFor 2), Patrick's skating just before his solo quad and his triple Axel was great, but I would have a quibble about the language "immediately preceding." How immediate is immediate? I could find example of skaters doing lesser jumps (Johnny Weir had a sort of spiral into a triple Lutz) in which the immediacy is more immediate.
    With regard to steps immediately preceding, one judge told me that in scoring the steps into the jump in the SP under the 6.0 judging system, you would calculate the amount of time between the steps and the jump - 1001, 1002, 1003, and deduct .1 for each second between the last of the steps and the jump. I would expect that a similar standard would be reasonable in determining whether the requirements under that bullet are met under the new scoring system.

    When watching Nobunari Oda, his jumps come right out of his choreography with no set up at all. Jeremy Abbott is doing the same thing in his LP this season. With a quad it's harder but I find that Patrick's second quad has almost no set up.

  2. #197
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,152
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'm not quite sure I agree with your analogy, but can you choose an example where a long buildup to a jump is appropriate?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NymtmYjpbU0&t=3m55s

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwVMGxe_NvY&t=1m

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I mean, how Adam Rippon approached his 3A was absolutely ridiculous.
    I agree. That's definitely a case of badly stalking a jump - slowing down, having a fearful demeanor beforehand, and a long preparatory stance. I do not, however, think it is bad to go into a jump with a bunch of crossovers if you are doing it smoothly and confidently and trying to build up to a big moment.

  3. #198
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,152
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Would you say that the first two jumps of this program (Michelle Kwan Aranjuez 2003 Worlds) features long entries with minimal choreography (not counting wrist-twirling)?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfluAux0Sf0
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I would, but I also consider that program a little boring - I wonder if Blades et al think thats appropriate or if those movements "speak a thousand words."
    I believe it to be probably the best performance of all time by female skater, so....

    Dick Button's commentary was perfection too:

    "The calmness and security of it is really breathtaking to see."

    "What a solid, flowing outside edge; a straight line. Not a single bobble on that landing."

    "Look at the back position."

    "Wonderful! Wonderful! That control on the landing, it was extraordinary."

    "Look at the face! I love it, I love it!"

    " * a joyous, whimpering sound of choking back tears * "

  4. #199
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    This might just be a definitions thing then. Because I don't think either of those were particularly long (and in the Wier's case, not particularly artistic either). Eldridge only spends about six seconds stroking before the 3A. But is it bad that I prefer the 3S though, just for the entrance?

  5. #200
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    2,184
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    The lengths you will go to in an effort to discredit this skater make your posts hysterically funny. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
    Allright, mother, you won. I should have done my homework better to learn from you how to be more hysterical and funny. But no way I would go to Egypt again. Forget it.

  6. #201
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,152
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    and in the Wier's case, not particularly artistic either


    I think it is one of the most beautiful and thoughtful openings to a (singles) program ever, the type of thing which has been completely abandoned in modern-day CoP.

    As Kurt said: "you can hear a pin drop as he skates into his opening Triple Axel combination." That's exactly what the music needed.

  7. #202
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    I don't mean the choregraphic opening - I agree, that was lovely - I mean the actual set-up to the 3A. Timewise, I mean 1:40 to 1:52.

  8. #203
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,152
    The idea I am getting at is that trying to throw in lots of extra turns and steps in the time leading up to the Axel, just to say "hey looking I'm doing more, so give me more points!", would have done a disservice to the movements that came beforehand and the purity of the music and buildup of tension leading into the jump. It would have made the choreography and interpretation and performance worse. But that's how the judges are scoring right now (you do more movement and we give you higher scores for ALL of the PCS) and that's a big, BIG problem.

  9. #204
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    I can't think of many cases where building up tension leading into jumps needed. Jeremy Abbott's quad in his OLympic season LP is a good tension building up example. Abbott is one of the few who could blend jumps into his choreography. But I can think of many many cases where skaters' long preparation before jumps are dull and take the program out of the natural flow. For example, Lu Chen's jumps. Adam Rippon is another painful example too. Plushenko, Joubert, and Weir all need a bit too long before jumps.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-26-2012 at 12:59 AM.

  10. #205
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,152
    Alexei. Yagudin.

  11. #206
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,008
    Alexei Yagudin generally belonged to the group of good tension building. Plushenko was good in that reqard earlier in his career. Some skaters always need long preparation for jumps but placed jumps in wrong places in relation to the music, so the long period before jumps are felt especially long and annoying. Many ladies have such long and annoying jumping pathes.

    I often make excuses in my mind for them whenever I felt their jumping pathes were too long. Only in resent years under CoP, I've found that there are possibilities to jump right after a movement - the transitions as it's called. And it is refreshing. In many cases, it is needed in order to fit into the music. The ability gave skaters the choice to use it whenever it's needed. Not many skaters are capable of that though. Chan and Abbott are extraordinary in this account.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-26-2012 at 11:24 PM.

  12. #207
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,829
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    With regard to steps immediately preceding, one judge told me that in scoring the steps into the jump in the SP under the 6.0 judging system, you would calculate the amount of time between the steps and the jump - 1001, 1002, 1003, and deduct .1 for each second between the last of the steps and the jump. I would expect that a similar standard would be reasonable in determining whether the requirements under that bullet are met under the new scoring system.

    When watching Nobunari Oda, his jumps come right out of his choreography with no set up at all. Jeremy Abbott is doing the same thing in his LP this season. With a quad it's harder but I find that Patrick's second quad has almost no set up.
    Now that I have had a chance to read the actual language of the GOE guidelines, I would give Patrick 7 of the 8 bullets (excluding only "unusual air position") and a +3 GOE for almost all of his elements.

    People who have followed the CoP from its beginning were startled when all of a sudden there was an explosion of +2 and +3 GOEs. Now we are seeing them routinely across the board for good performances from the top skaters -- as well as PCS in the high nines with a sprinkling of 10s. The very first year of the CoP Sasha Cohen got a couple of nines and everyone thought that was scandalous over-scoring, so they came out with new guidelines (for the 2004 season) so that no one would score that high any more.

    But now, comparing the language of the old rules (2008) with the new (2011), it is clear that the ISU wants higher scores. It used to be literally unheard of for anyone to get a +3 on anything. It would have to be the most spectacular element of all time -- then maybe it would get +2. Now they have changed the rules. Instead of requiring "exceptional, superior, outstanding" qualities, all you need is a "good" entry, take-off, air position, and landing to get a +3.

    I'm not complaining. In the past there was too little in the way of rewarding elements that were performed pretty well, as opposed to not-so-good ones.
    Last edited by Mathman; 01-26-2012 at 10:01 AM.

  13. #208
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    The Brink of Insanity
    Posts
    667
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    People who have followed the CoP from its beginning were startled when all of a sudden there was an explosion of +2 and +3 GOEs. Now we are seeing them routinely across the board for good performances from the top skaters -- as well as PCS in the high nines with a sprinkling of 10s. The very first year of the CoP Sasha Cohen got a couple of nines and everyone thought that was scandalous over-scoring, so they came out with new guidelines (for the 2004 season) so that no one would score that high any more.
    It’s not that Sasha Cohen received 9’s in PCS, it’s how she skated when getting 9’s that was the issue. I was in Mississauga when she set the scoring record that stood for years, until finally broken by Yu-Na Kim in the 2009/2010 season. Her SP (Malaguena) really was spectacular, even with the wobbles into her flip and flutz but her LP (Swan Lake) was a disaster. At the time, I called it a “dead fish” of a program.

    To start with, she was slow and cautious throughout the program. She missed her opening flutz which would have been her combo but for the shaky landing. Her second flutz attempt was worse than the first, being seriously short in rotation, and there was no combo in the program at all and I think she fell on another jump attempt. I think, in total, Sasha had 4 clean triples. She stumbled in the footwork. Even her spins were slow. The program really looked new and undertrained, which was surprising given how well she had skated it the Marshall’s competition a few weeks earlier.

    Her basic skating was also an issue for me. I sat in the first row and I could clearly hear her scratching past me so the judges had to have heard it too. Watching and listening to her in warm-up was in stark contrast to Shizuka who has some of the cleanest, quietest edges ever. It was a treat just to watch her stroke around the ice. I figured Sasha would win the gold because she had a huge lead after the SP, but I didn’t expect her to win the LP, especially after Shizuka nailed her 3Z/3T.

    I don’t understand how a skater who is slow, tentative, who wobbles from edge to edge in the entry to two of her jumps, and who fails to perform a program and simply skates through the music, is deserving of 9’s in any PCS category. The judges appeared to completely ignore Cohen’s flat, listless performance in the LP and gifted her with the same kind of PCS marks she’d been given for her SP. It always rankled me that this LP was held up for years as the best program in CoP history.

    This was the first event judged under the new judging system and problems were immediately apparent. The following season, the 1 point deduction for a fall was mandated and I sincerely believe it was this LP that lead directly to that rule.

  14. #209
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,829
    ^ Thanks for the first-hand view.

    My impression at the time was that in the first year of the CoP the judges were pretty much at sea about what the program components were supposed to be about. Sasha was real pretty, so she got a good "second mark.

  15. #210
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    9,490
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Her basic skating was also an issue for me. I sat in the first row and I could clearly hear her scratching past me so the judges had to have heard it too. Watching and listening to her in warm-up was in stark contrast to Shizuka who has some of the cleanest, quietest edges ever. It was a treat just to watch her stroke around the ice. I figured Sasha would win the gold because she had a huge lead after the SP, but I didn’t expect her to win the LP, especially after Shizuka nailed her 3Z/3T.
    The more I hear about what Shizuka's good at, the happier I am that she's always been among my favorite skaters. In the early days of watching her, I didn't even understand half of what I was seeing. I just knew, maybe on some instinctual level, that she was amazing.

Page 14 of 15 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •