Men - Free Program | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Men - Free Program

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I think in general that judges should be more stingy with positive GOEs. A GOE of zero (absent mistakes) means that the jump was satisfactory in every respect. I believe that when the CoP first came out the instructions to judges were just something like, if the jump really blows you away, give it some positive GOE.

This was never the case. There was always specific criteria for GoE, both plus and minus.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I want to add into my last post this:

Patrick's this LP skating is the MOST difficult skating ever under any systems.

I've rewatched his LP. I don't know if any of you have had the same feeling, but I appreciate this performance even more than I have had the first time I watched the same performance. It's like he was completely at ease and let his emotions flow out through the music and his movements. Even his facial express was in the zone. His speed and his high knicks and turns make you competely forgot how difficult it is to perform like this on slippery ice. What a talent!!!:bow: Even Patrick's look is more handsome to me now!:biggrin: (Not that he isn't handsome. He's just more handsome now.)

I'd give him SS=10, TR=10, PE=10, CH=10, IN=9.50. I have no doubt that if Patrick skates like this at 2012 Worlds, we could see 10s in every category in PCS there.:yes:
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
^^^^ I believe judges see and appreciate the difficulties and the skills more than most people. They are awed. At this Nationals, Patrick delivered more than they could expect and ask of any skater or human of today. In that sense it was perfection, or beyond relative or current standard of perfection.

We are impressed when somebody juggle 10 objects without dropping any. But a juggler performing the same while riding a unicycle is even more impressive. But we would not ask of anybody to juggle 10 object while riding a unicycle across a wire, high above ground, in gusty high wind and pouring rain. Judges probably see something similar when Patrick is near flawless. And if this juggler drops a ball, most will forgive him, just as when Patrick does fall during a program, his marks suffer, but he still performs above the current standard, especially when others don't bring their highest standard.

I want to add to what cannot be faked - power, and skating huge. Patrick does his artistry on speed, deep edges, and in the flow, with elegance, sophistication, and power. I see none other who could have all these qualities together in a performance. Many can do cute, sexy, beautiful, fun, funky, dramatic, moving, etc.; they may have elegance, sophistication, or power but not together to make it grand. Patrick can do grand. His skills set him apart, like in all crafts and arts. It's nonsense to discount his performance by discounting his skills. His style may be imitable but not the performance. It's beyond anybody else's capability today.
 
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Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Well, but this logic leaves the men's filed just hopeless! Luckily, it's not true. A good deal of male skaters in the past and present could and can show the artistic performances and sophiticated presentations than that blah Aranjuez. I won't evet bother to start the list, it's quite long. 200 for doing what others could do years ago and even better is just embarrassing, like the whole inflation thing itself. It reminds me some soviet economy plan: they told us we must reach those numbers, so we will (forget the quality)!:laugh:

The lengths you will go to in an effort to discredit this skater make your posts hysterically funny. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
The lengths you will go to in an effort to discredit this skater make your posts hysterically funny. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

It has been so totally predictable that it's at best mildly amusing. From somebody calling Patrick's Aranjuez blah, I should expect some flair, with drama and humour and a little real bite. -3. :disagree:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Mathman, care to demonstrate with videos quads and 3As that that you deem better according to each bullet point? Will be much appreciated.

That is an interesting challenge, but will take some time. (I'm not sure I feel up to it. :) )

However, to me the GOE bullets are supposed to set absolute standards, not to to compare one skater to another.

In category 3, "varied position in the air / delayed rotations," I know what that means even if no skater has ever done it on a quad attempt. Dorothy Hamill had a great delayed single Axel. Brian Boitano did a triple Lutz with a hand over his head and Adam Rippon does it with two hands up. These are "varied positions." Neither Patrick or anyone else has done this for a quad, so neither Patrick nor anyone else deserves credit for this bullet.

For criterion 1), again, I don't think anyone, Patrick or otherwise, has ever done, say, a hydroplane into a quad. Matt Savoie used to do a hydroplane into a triple Lutz. That would earn this bullet, IMHO.

For 2), Patrick's skating just before his solo quad and his triple Axel was great, but I would have a quibble about the language "immediately preceding." How immediate is immediate? I could find example of skaters doing lesser jumps (Johnny Weir had a sort of spiral into a triple Lutz) in which the immediacy is more immediate.

Again, the question is not whether anyone did it better, but whether Patrick or anyone else satisfied the requirement for the bullet.

What struck me about the wording for requirements 4, 5, and 6, is that the skater merely has to be "good" in the areas of height and distance, extension, and flow. Certainly Patrick, like many others, is "good" in these areas. To me it seems like the wording should be changed to "outstanding."
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I wonder if some bullet points may be somewhat relative, according to the level of difficulties. E.g. The definition of immediacy for a quad jump may be different from that for a triple because most quad jumps require much more set up time and distance so a similar entry for a quad as for a triple will be very impressive. Similarly what is good for a lesser jump will be consider great for a more difficult jump, because few ever do it as "good".

In Patrick's case, his speed may play a trick on perception as well. E.g. the distance of the last step may not be immediate but it's actually immediate time wise. While some stroke down the whole rink to get to a quad jump, he has multiple twists and turns on deep edges down the same length before the jump but in a much shorter time. Do these steps count? They should, especially when they are absent from others' jump entries.

I was the first to write that this was not a perfect skate from Patrick yet, so I'm not here to argue for perfect mark for every element and component. But I do believe the high scores reflect the values of what he really put out there and then on the ice.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I wonder if some bullet points may be somewhat relative, according to the level of difficulties. E.g. The definition of immediacy for a quad jump may be different from that for a triple because most quad jumps require much more set up time and distance so a similar entry for a quad as for a triple will be very impressive. Similarly what is good for a lesser jump will be consider great for a more difficult jump, because few ever do it as "good".

I have no doubt that judges think like that, but I think it is wrong.

A satisfactory quad deserves 0 GOE just like a satisfactory double Axel, if it has nothing special going for it except that it matches the requirements for the jump. There is no reason to give positive GOE for a quad just because it's so darn hard.

The base value of a quad should be raised because its so darn hard (to 13.5 points in my scheme ;) ). Then if anyone ever did a quad out of a hydroplane with his hands over his head, we could talk about "unusual entry" and "varied air position."
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Then if anyone ever did a quad out of a hydroplane with his hands over his head, we could talk about "unusual entry" and "varied air position."

First let's see someone do that for a double or triple.

I added an elaboration in my post above, about Patrick's entries into his quads which may take similar distance as others but with more varied steps and in a shorter time. Will you take that into consideration for an entry?
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
A satisfactory quad deserves 0 GOE just like a satisfactory double Axel, if it has nothing special going for it except that it matches the requirements for the jump. There is no reason to give positive GOE for a quad just because it's so darn hard.

Are you saying that a skater who does steps and footwork the length of the ice and then does a quad should have exactly the same score as someone who spends 20 seconds stroking and building speed until my husband yells "Jump already!" at the TV screen? Assuming of course that the actual quad is of similar quality.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Are you saying that a skater who does steps and footwork the length of the ice and then does a quad should have exactly the same score as someone who spends 20 seconds stroking and building speed until my husband yells "Jump already!" at the TV screen? Assuming of course that the actual quad is of similar quality.

No, the second skater would get negative GOE for "extra long preparation" and the first skater would earn the bullet for "recognizable steps and skating moves' into the jump, which would give him a positive GOE if he had another bullet or two.

I am not saying to eliminate positive GOEs on quads, only that you should have to earn them, according to the rules, just like any other jump.
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
as someone who spends 20 seconds stroking and building speed until my husband yells "Jump already!" at the TV screen? Assuming of course that the actual quad is of similar quality.

LOL. I just think that's hilarious and I can't stop laughing...
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
No, the second skater would get negative GOE for "extra long preparation" and the first skater would earn the bullet for "recognizable steps and skating moves' into the jump, which would give him a positive GOE if he had another bullet or two.

I am not saying to eliminate positive GOEs on quads, only that you should have to earn them, according to the rules, just like any other jump.

But the extra long preparation used to be the standard, not extra long, until Patrick came along with his quads. Which should be the standard now? If the old standard holds, it should not be penalized but the new fancy entry should be awarded. If the new fancy entry is established as the current standard, then most quads would receive negative GOE, and only hydro blading with arms above into a quad would receive WOW points. Is this fair?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This was never the case. There was always specific criteria for GoE, both plus and minus.

From your knowledgeable posts I believe that you are a skating expert or insider, so I don't have any basis to challenge that claim. But if so, the ISU was quite stingy in sharing the positive GOE features with the public.

My memory is that it was in preparation for the 2008-09 season that the ISU gave a detailed look at what the judges were supposed to be rewarding in positive GOEs. Communication 1494 came out as usual with new base values, criteria for levels, and lists of errors to be enforced as negative GOEs. Then in July 2008 they put out a separate document, Communication 1505, which gave supplemental discussion of positive GOEs. My impression at the time was that this was the first such official document (at least the first one shared with the public), and that it was issued in part to make precise exactly what the judges should be looking for.

It is very interesting to compare this first list of bullets (if it really was the first) with the current one. In the 2208 document bullets 4, 5, and 6 said

4. "Great height and distance" (now it is "good")

5. "Superior extension" (now it is "good")

6. "Superior flow in and out" (now it is "good")

Furthermore, there were only 6 bullets and you had to get at least 5 out of 6, instead of the current 5 out of 8, to get a +3.

To me, there are two ways to think about the changes. My first impression was that it was a case of sheer "grade inflation" -- the ISU wanted to make it easier to get big positive GOEs. If so, their strategy worked.

But you could also argue that "superior" is deliberately comparative, whereas "good" could mean compared to a fixed standard. I think the first interpretation of the ISU's intent is the right one, however.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I added an elaboration in my post above, about Patrick's entries into his quads which may take similar distance as others but with more varied steps and in a shorter time. Will you take that into consideration for an entry?

Yeah, I've got to give it up for the boy. His choreography into both the quad and the triple Axel is first rate. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Skatefiguring said:
But the extra long preparation used to be the standard, not extra long, until Patrick came along with his quads. Which should be the standard now? If the old standard holds, it should not be penalized but the new fancy entry should be awarded. If the new fancy entry is established as the current standard, then most quads would receive negative GOE, and only hydro blading with arms above into a quad would receive WOW points. Is this fair?

Rulz is rulz. "Long preparation" = -1 to -2 GOE. If this wasn't enforced in the past, shame on the judges. It should be enforced now, on all jumps, quads along with others.

Again, I do not think that the GOEs are the place to acknowledge the difficulty of an element. That should be reflected in base value. The GOEs should reward quality, whether on a hard element or on an easy one.

(JMO)
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
LOL. I just think that's hilarious and I can't stop laughing...

My husband does this with any skater who stalks jumps and in particular, Stojko (when he was competing), Plushenko and Joubert. He likes skaters whose jumps come out of nowhere.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Maybe your husband needs some medication to help improve his patience, in addition to an understanding of what dramatic build-up is. Rewarding a skater for doing as many movements as possible, when it does not go with the music, is the same as rewarding a filmmaker for cutting every 3 seconds within the scene just because they can. Just because you can add more, that doesn't mean it produces a greater effect. Sometimes it detracts, in fact. If you stop to think about it, this is the same as the Canadian criticism of so many Russian costumes. It's something that everyone in fashion is aware of; intricately sewing tons of feathers and sparkly pieces onto a dress maybe be extremely difficult, but that doesn't mean the dress is something anyone wants to wear.

Attention spans around the World have likely dropped as a result of how modern media is handled, people have been trained to become restless at slow pacing of television/film, and such is sadly the case with how figure skating is evolving as a result of how the CoP is being handled. Obviously stalking jumps too much is a bad thing but that doesn't mean there isn't a time and a place for simplicity and for relatively long approaches into jumps, with nothing but simple movements leading up to it. It all comes down to the music and the character of the program. In film, sometimes you want quick cuts and sometimes you want long cuts. It's no different in figure skating. If we only reward tons of transitions in programs, then the sport is losing much of what makes it special and losing a vast amount of potential variety. Who wants to watch nothing but action films, if you are an adult of non-retarded intelligence?
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
If Stojko, Plushenko, and Joubert stalk their quads for the sake of drama, why haven't they demonstrated quad jumps with short or foot step entries to the music, even once in a while since they do so many quads? Or at least with some artistic arm flailing? OTOH, why don't they sometimes stalk a double jump or a single for the sake of artistry? A little variety should be a treat for the fans and to show off their artistic versatility.
 

Puchi

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Maybe your husband needs some medication to help improve his patience, in addition to an understanding of what dramatic build-up is. Rewarding a skater for doing as many movements as possible, when it does not go with the music, is the same as rewarding a filmmaker for cutting every 3 seconds within the scene just because they can. Just because you can add more, that doesn't mean it produces a greater effect. Sometimes it detracts, in fact. If you stop to think about it, this is the same as the Canadian criticism of so many Russian costumes. It's something that everyone in fashion is aware of; intricately sewing tons of feathers and sparkly pieces onto a dress maybe be extremely difficult, but that doesn't mean the dress is something anyone wants to wear.

Attention spans around the World have likely dropped as a result of how modern media is handled, people have been trained to become restless at slow pacing of television/film, and such is sadly the case with how figure skating is evolving as a result of how the CoP is being handled. Obviously stalking jumps too much is a bad thing but that doesn't mean there isn't a time and a place for simplicity and for relatively long approaches into jumps, with nothing but simple movements leading up to it. It all comes down to the music and the character of the program. In film, sometimes you want quick cuts and sometimes you want long cuts. It's no different in figure skating. If we only reward tons of transitions in programs, then the sport is losing much of what makes it special and losing a vast amount of potential variety. Who wants to watch nothing but action films, if you are an adult of non-retarded intelligence?


Sorry Blades, but this post is so ridiculously OTT that I had to take my medication so I could finish reading it.
 
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