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Thread: Worlds, 4CC, Jr. Worlds Teams

  1. #31
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    Just in case anyone missed it, here's the official announcement from Skate Canada.

    http://skatecanada.ca/AboutUs/NewsDe...tabid/2157/sni[2797]/1434/language/en-US/Default.aspx

    The entries are as follows:

    ISU World Figure Skating Championships, Nice, France - March 26 - April 1, 2012
    Men
    Patrick Chan, 21, Toronto, Ont.
    Kevin Reynolds, 21, Coquitlam, B.C.

    Ice Dance
    Tessa Virtue, 22, London, Ont. / Scott Moir, 24, Ilderton, Ont.
    Kaitlyn Weaver, 22, Waterloo, Ont. – Houston, TX / Andrew Poje, 24, Waterloo, Ont.
    Kharis Ralph, 19, Toronto, Ontario / Asher Hill, 20, Pickering, Ontario

    Pair
    Meagan Duhamel, 26, Lively, Ont. / Eric Radford, 26, Balmertown, Ont.
    Jessica Dubé, 24, St-Cyrille de Wendover, Que. / Sebastian Wolfe, 21, Terrebonne, Que.

    Ladies
    The top two finishers from the national championship will compete at the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships, and Canada’s one entry for the world team will be named following their performances at that competition.

    ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships, Colorado Springs, USA – February 6 – 12, 2012
    Men
    Patrick Chan, 21, Toronto, Ont.
    Kevin Reynolds, 21, Coquitlam, B.C.
    Jeremy Ten, 22, Vancouver, B.C.

    Ice Dance
    Tessa Virtue, 22, London, Ont. / Scott Moir, 24, Ilderton, Ont.
    Kaitlyn Weaver, 22, Waterloo, Ont. – Houston, TX / Andrew Poje, 24, Waterloo, Ont.
    Alexandra Paul, 20, Barrie, Ont. / Mitchell Islam, 21, Barrie, Ont.

    Pair
    Meagan Duhamel, 26, Lively, Ont. / Eric Radford, 26, Balmertown, Ont.
    Jessica Dubé, 24, St-Cyrille de Wendover, Que. / Sebastian Wolfe, 21, Terrebonne, Que.
    Paige Lawrence, 21, Kennedy, Sask. / Rudi Swiegers, 24, Kipling, Sask.

    Ladies
    Amélie Lacoste, 23, Delson, Que.
    Cynthia Phaneuf, 24, Contrecoeur, Que.
    Alexandra Najarro, 18, Richmond Hill, Ont.

    Canadian Team - ISU Junior World Figure Skating Championships, Minsk, Belarus, February 27 – March 4, 2012
    Men
    Liam Firus, 19, North Vancouver, B.C.
    Nam Nguyen, 13, Burnaby, B.C.

    Ice Dance
    Nicole Orford, 19, Burnaby, B.C. / Thomas Williams, 20, Okotoks, Alta.
    Andréanne Poulin, 16, L’Île Bizard, Que. / Marc-André Servant, 20, Vaudreuil, Que.

    Pair
    Katherine Bobak, 17, Guelph, Ont. / Ian Beharry, 20, Guelph, Ont.
    Margaret Purdy, 16, Strathroy, Ont. / Michael Marinaro, 19, Sarnia, Ont.
    Hayleigh Bell, 15, Acton, Ont. / Alistair Sylvester, 17, Stratford, Ont.

    Ladies
    Katelyn Osmond, 16, Sherwood Park, Alta.


    Aside from my comments regarding pairs and ladies, I'm really happy with the rest of the selections. As I said, thrilled with the decision to send P/I to 4CC, especially since they finished so close to R/H. Kudos to SC for not letting them fall even further behind by robbing them of valuable international exposure. I'm glad Najarro will be going as well.

    As for junior worlds, the team is just perfect. The only thing that surprised me was the decision to send the novice pairs champs and not the 2nd or 3rd place junior teams. It will be interesting to see how Bell/Sylvester fare when their first junior competition ever will be junior worlds.

  2. #32
    Rooting for Adrian, Javi and Kevin R!!! :) aemeraldrainc's Avatar
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    Thanks. ^^

  3. #33
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    I too am unhappy M-T/M situation. IMO The best plan would have been to let the 4CC team be D/W, L/S, and M-T/M because Canada would get 3 spots for 4CC next year anyway. The 3 world berths is so much more important for Canada because they have 3 shining pairs. M-T/M were the national champions and are already recognized by international judges and only had a bad skate at nationals. The Phaneuf/Lacoste situation should have been pulled for them too; a skate off between D/W and M-T/M (and see if D/W place better or have comparable PCS to M-T/M). L/S are actually my favorite Canadian pair but did not do well enough on the GP to merit the Worlds spot either but do deserve 4CC from their nationals skate.

  4. #34
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    Thanks skatingfan04 for the info! 4CCs has definitely become an important competition, LOL! I am hoping that next year Skate Canada will have more athletes going to Nebelhorn, Finlandia or other junior/senior competitions in the fall to gain that international experience. I am hoping that everyone has great skates at 4CCs and Worlds. For pairs, I am a fan of Lawrence/Sweigers as well and I am hoping that they can continue to grow. For M-T/M, they should keep their chins high and hopefully take the time and look at the positives from the whole season and work from there and enjoy their skating!

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    Quote Originally Posted by icellist View Post
    I too am unhappy M-T/M situation. IMO The best plan would have been to let the 4CC team be D/W, L/S, and M-T/M because Canada would get 3 spots for 4CC next year anyway. The 3 world berths is so much more important for Canada because they have 3 shining pairs. M-T/M were the national champions and are already recognized by international judges and only had a bad skate at nationals. The Phaneuf/Lacoste situation should have been pulled for them too; a skate off between D/W and M-T/M (and see if D/W place better or have comparable PCS to M-T/M). L/S are actually my favorite Canadian pair but did not do well enough on the GP to merit the Worlds spot either but do deserve 4CC from their nationals skate.
    I 100% agre with all of this. The goal should be to ensure maximum number of entries to worlds for next year, which means MT/M should be going to worlds this year. If there is any doubt, use 4CC as a skate-off for the 2, 3 and 4 teams. There is also a potential downside to putting D/W out there internationally too soon. I was very impressed with how well they have come along through the season. But in no way are they are ready for the world stage yet. And given that Dube is a former world medalist, it will not help them to show up internationally without enough goods to be competitive. The narrative is not right, and could actually harm them when they are ready for prime time.

    MT/M had 1 really bad skate at the worst time. They have improved just a tremendous amount this season, seriously worked on their weaknesses, and had a great showing in the GP season. Saturday night was not their night. It happens once in awhile. That does not discount their current world ranking and all the good things they have done throughout the season. They are great people with great attitudes and winning spirits. They are huge role-models for the sport. I'm sure they will draw on all of that now, with the help of their coaches and hometown fans.

  6. #36
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    NorthernDancers, Dube/Wolfe have already been to two GPs.

  7. #37
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    Pet peeve time again. Do-overs, partial credit, this one doesn't count, um OK best two out of three?

    It's not my job to tell Skate Canada what to do (unlike USFS ) but -- y'all should send the best lady in Canada to worlds. You should have a competition to determine who the best lady in Canada is. No mulligans, no King's X. Go big or go home.

    JMO

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Pet peeve time again. Do-overs, partial credit, this one doesn't count, um OK best two out of three?

    It's not my job to tell Skate Canada what to do (unlike USFS ) but -- y'all should send the best lady in Canada to worlds. You should have a competition to determine who the best lady in Canada is. No mulligans, no King's X. Go big or go home.

    JMO
    Mathman, when we've had this discussion in the past, I've been a little more sanguine about it than you have. Generally, 9 times out of 10, the best do win Nationals/rank. I've understood the need to send the best "team" to Worlds/international events as generally and the feeling that there should be some way to counteract for an off competition. But there's something about the LaCoste/Phaneuf situation that bothers me - it feels mendacious.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by icellist View Post
    I too am unhappy M-T/M situation. IMO The best plan would have been to let the 4CC team be D/W, L/S, and M-T/M because Canada would get 3 spots for 4CC next year anyway. The 3 world berths is so much more important for Canada because they have 3 shining pairs. M-T/M were the national champions and are already recognized by international judges and only had a bad skate at nationals. The Phaneuf/Lacoste situation should have been pulled for them too; a skate off between D/W and M-T/M (and see if D/W place better or have comparable PCS to M-T/M). L/S are actually my favorite Canadian pair but did not do well enough on the GP to merit the Worlds spot either but do deserve 4CC from their nationals skate.
    Having listened to Duhamel/Radford being interviewed after their win, they made it clear what their goals are for the rest of the season - win the 4CC title, then aim for top 5 at Worlds. They do not plan to skip 4CC; they want to go up against the Chinese teams and if possible take the title. They'd also like to qualify for the WTT. SC will not deny D/R a spot at 4CC - D/R are their top pairs team no doubt, they just won nationals by 20 points, and SC wants to support their chances of future success.

    So with D/R taking one 4CC spot, how can they send M-T/M for a skate-off with D/W? They'd have to deny a spot to L/S, who need the chance to post a good score to enhance their opportunities for GP's next year, and who beat M-T/M at Nationals. I feel sorry for M-T/M, but I don't see how SC can justify leaving any of the other teams off the 4CC roster.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Pet peeve time again. Do-overs, partial credit, this one doesn't count, um OK best two out of three?

    It's not my job to tell Skate Canada what to do (unlike USFS ) but -- y'all should send the best lady in Canada to worlds. You should have a competition to determine who the best lady in Canada is. No mulligans, no King's X. Go big or go home.

    JMO
    Historically SC has had a slightly different philosophy on this topic from USFS. Both philosophies are arguable (and regularly argued here ) , but SC does officially take more than one competition into account, and are within their rights to make this choice.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan04 View Post

    As for junior worlds, the team is just perfect. The only thing that surprised me was the decision to send the novice pairs champs and not the 2nd or 3rd place junior teams. It will be interesting to see how Bell/Sylvester fare when their first junior competition ever will be junior worlds.

    Not surprised given the scores at nationals. Bell/Sylvester do have the throw triple loop ( they did it in FS ) which they could not do in the novice short program ( but can do in the junior short program ). The other factor is that the multipliers at novice are lower than the junior ones. So their real junior scores would be much higher ( even with the novice bonuses taken out and the falls deductions added in.

    Here is my attempt to juniorize Bell/Sylvester's score at nationals. I used all the raw scores on the detailed protocols to come up with my numbers. Grant you this is not an exact science but it is always fun to crunch the numbers. In the novice protocols , I assume a fall when I see a mainly -3 GOE on an element. Since I did not see that level of GOE anywhere , I am assuming no falls in B/S's 2 performances.


    Short program

    TES 24.45 ( novice ) - would be the same in junior with the same content . Keep in mind they would likely add more points to the score if they did a throw triple loop that they are capable of doing. If I replaced their score in the long program for the triple loop throw for the original double loop throw they would score 5.12 points instead of 3.63 points. So they would gain about 1.5 points in TES in the short.

    The adjusted junior PCS would be different however since the novice multipliers are lower than the junior ones.

    PCS in novice is 15.31. Adjusted with junior multipliers the PCS is 17.47.

    Long program

    TES is 43.75 I will take away the bonus point for the throw triple loop to get 42.75 for an adjusted junior score.

    PCS in novice is 33.71. Adjusted with junior multipliers that score becomes 38.48.

    Total score

    Bell/Sylvester's novice total score is 118.22. I have a junior adjusted score of 124.64.

    The junior silver medalists, Krystel Desjardins / Charlie Bilodeau, scored 40.10 in the short and 82.37 in the long for a total of 122.47.

  12. #42
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Mathman, when we've had this discussion in the past, I've been a little more sanguine about it than you have. Generally, 9 times out of 10, the best do win Nationals/rank. I've understood the need to send the best "team" to Worlds/international events as generally and the feeling that there should be some way to counteract for an off competition. But there's something about the LaCoste/Phaneuf situation that bothers me - it feels mendacious.
    I had to look up "mendacious" in the dictionary. Can you explain more why it bothers you, IP?

    I think what bothers me that this was not Cynthia having an "off-night" rather she has gone on a downward spiral since that 5th place finish at Worlds. Amelie, doesn't have a lutz or flip, but so what? (Ksenia Markova managed top 10 finishes without a lutz and can barely do a flip.) And when you consider that Cynthia could not even beat Rachael Flatt, who was injured at Worlds and had a terrible LP, you have to question why she's being considered for the spot at all.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by callalily View Post
    Having listened to Duhamel/Radford being interviewed after their win, they made it clear what their goals are for the rest of the season - win the 4CC title, then aim for top 5 at Worlds. They do not plan to skip 4CC; they want to go up against the Chinese teams and if possible take the title. They'd also like to qualify for the WTT. SC will not deny D/R a spot at 4CC - D/R are their top pairs team no doubt, they just won nationals by 20 points, and SC wants to support their chances of future success.

    So with D/R taking one 4CC spot, how can they send M-T/M for a skate-off with D/W? They'd have to deny a spot to L/S, who need the chance to post a good score to enhance their opportunities for GP's next year, and who beat M-T/M at Nationals. I feel sorry for M-T/M, but I don't see how SC can justify leaving any of the other teams off the 4CC roster.
    Points well taken - however that is the beauty of having 3 world spots in ice-dance. Paul/Islam get to go to 4CCs - which is huge for them. At this point - I think securing that 3rd worlds spot in pairs is more important for next year since it is a Worlds right before the Olympics and you have 4 talented teams still growing with a talented junior team turning senior next year. With all the injuries we are seeing - that 3rd worlds spot is important.

    ETA: So just missing the GP finals - which D/R squeezed in over M-T/M - doesn't count for anything? I mean there is no easy solution - but I don't think Skate Canada has really thought this out...
    Last edited by heyhey; 01-23-2012 at 10:26 PM.

  14. #44
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    I don't think Skate Canada really expected to be in this position. I think they thought that Cynthia's six weeks with Orser would right the ship and she'd win her third National title. That didn't happen. Now, we can say that it didn't happen because Amelie had the skate of her life, but that's not true. Amelie left points on the table. She singled two triples. She had a fall. We can also say it didn't happen because Phaneuf left points on the table. Sure, she landed some more jumps, but jumps aren't everything - check out her levels. Phaneuf had FIVE level one and two elements between her two programs. She lost the LP TES to LaCoste, who friggin singled two jumps, and then complained that her components were too low (no, sorry - high sixes/low sevens is fair, imo). And when you recall that Cynthia lost World bronze because she got a level two on her spiral.

    I feel like this is an attempt to give Cynthia ONE MORE CHANCE to earn a Worlds spot. She didn't earn it with her GP performances. She didn't earn it with Nationals. Had the reverse been true - had Amelie scored lower on the GP and earned silver at Nationals despite beating Phaneuf in the LP - I think SC would be sending Phaneuf, no question. And that rankles. Yes, Amelie can still earn it. But she already has.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    And when you consider that Cynthia could not even beat Rachael Flatt, who was injured at Worlds and had a terrible LP, you have to question why she's being considered for the spot at all.
    Because the year before, she beat them all, including the reigning U.S. Champion and Silver Medalist at Worlds even a Canadian Silver medalist. I don't a 2nd rank woman from Canada has ever beat the #1 and #2 ladies from the U.S. in an Olympic year.

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