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Thread: Worlds, 4CC, Jr. Worlds Teams

  1. #46
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I don't (think) a 2nd rank woman from Canada has ever beat the #1 and #2 ladies from the U.S. in an Olympic year.
    Who do you consider to be the number two ranked woman from Canada at the moment?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    NorthernDancers, Dube/Wolfe have already been to two GPs.
    And their programs have been proven to not be competitive on the world level. Sending them out again when they aren't really ready will perhaps hurt them more in the end. And it won't help Canada get 3 spots next year. 3 spots are within reach if we send the teams with the best overall record, international ranking, and international level programs.

  3. #48
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    And their programs have been proven to not be competitive on the world level. Sending them out again when they aren't really ready will perhaps hurt them more in the end. And it won't help Canada get 3 spots next year. 3 spots are within reach if we send the teams with the best overall record, international ranking, and international level programs.
    I don't really agree with the first part of your argument. I think the exposure will be good for them even with the fact that their level of difficulty is not as high assuming they can skate two relatively clean programs. It will help them build their PCS for next season because the fact is judges to give higher ones to teams who have been out there more almost without exception, sometimes without any other noticeable justification or reason. I think sending them will only hurt them if they preform DISASTROUSLY, and based on Nationals I do not see that happening.

    However, I do agree that not sending them may hurt Canada and that MT/M provide a higher chance of 3 spots. That said if D/R do get 5th or 4th I do believe it is possible that a clean or nearly clean D/W could get the 3 spots too. Chances just aren't AS high. Either way Canada has evidently decided that this is the way to go for whatever reason- I am not too bothered by it and am more perplexed by the ladies situation.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I 100% agre with all of this. The goal should be to ensure maximum number of entries to worlds for next year, which means MT/M should be going to worlds this year. If there is any doubt, use 4CC as a skate-off for the 2, 3 and 4 teams. There is also a potential downside to putting D/W out there internationally too soon. I was very impressed with how well they have come along through the season. But in no way are they are ready for the world stage yet. And given that Dube is a former world medalist, it will not help them to show up internationally without enough goods to be competitive. The narrative is not right, and could actually harm them when they are ready for prime time.

    MT/M had 1 really bad skate at the worst time. They have improved just a tremendous amount this season, seriously worked on their weaknesses, and had a great showing in the GP season. Saturday night was not their night. It happens once in awhile. That does not discount their current world ranking and all the good things they have done throughout the season. They are great people with great attitudes and winning spirits. They are huge role-models for the sport. I'm sure they will draw on all of that now, with the help of their coaches and hometown fans.

    L/S had a great performance - especially now that we know Paige was skating with concussion. Sending them to Worlds and M-T/M ,D/R and D/W to 4CC would have given the injured team time to recover and still gave all four teams the chance to compete this season. Last year L/S peaked later in the season and won the bronze at 4CC.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I don't really agree with the first part of your argument. I think the exposure will be good for them even with the fact that their level of difficulty is not as high assuming they can skate two relatively clean programs. It will help them build their PCS for next season because the fact is judges to give higher ones to teams who have been out there more almost without exception, sometimes without any other noticeable justification or reason. I think sending them will only hurt them if they preform DISASTROUSLY, and based on Nationals I do not see that happening.

    However, I do agree that not sending them may hurt Canada and that MT/M provide a higher chance of 3 spots. That said if D/R do get 5th or 4th I do believe it is possible that a clean or nearly clean D/W could get the 3 spots too. Chances just aren't AS high. Either way Canada has evidently decided that this is the way to go for whatever reason- I am not too bothered by it and am more perplexed by the ladies situation.
    Dube/Wolfe skated 2 clean programs at Nationals. However, when Jessica is not on with her jumps - things can unravel quickly. Add the lower level of difficulty internationally and you can see the scores dip. Yes they have improved and added the triple twist since the GP series but I am not as confident as you (I have to admit that I saw them live in the summer at Quebec sectionals and it was bad on many levels - so perhaps that is where my bias is coming from)...

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Pet peeve time again. Do-overs, partial credit, this one doesn't count, um OK best two out of three?

    It's not my job to tell Skate Canada what to do (unlike USFS ) but -- y'all should send the best lady in Canada to worlds. You should have a competition to determine who the best lady in Canada is. No mulligans, no King's X. Go big or go home.

    JMO
    It might not always be the case, but Skate Canada is smarter than USFSA on this team selection!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-24-2012 at 01:05 AM.

  7. #52
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyhey View Post
    Dube/Wolfe skated 2 clean programs at Nationals. However, when Jessica is not on with her jumps - things can unravel quickly. Add the lower level of difficulty internationally and you can see the scores dip. Yes they have improved and added the triple twist since the GP series but I am not as confident as you (I have to admit that I saw them live in the summer at Quebec sectionals and it was bad on many levels - so perhaps that is where my bias is coming from)...
    I have to admit in the interest of full disclosure that unlike some I am a fan of Dube so maybe I'm a little biased myself. I do think that at the very least they didn't unravel under pressure which I do think bodes well. As for the jumps, it is true but the same could be said for many pairs teams (even possible MT/M). I guess we'll see. The situation is unfortunate as obviously it would be preferred that everyone had skated their best and the chips could have fallen where they may that way...

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyhey View Post
    Dube/Wolfe skated 2 clean programs at Nationals. However, when Jessica is not on with her jumps - things can unravel quickly. Add the lower level of difficulty internationally and you can see the scores dip. Yes they have improved and added the triple twist since the GP series but I am not as confident as you (I have to admit that I saw them live in the summer at Quebec sectionals and it was bad on many levels - so perhaps that is where my bias is coming from)...
    I hear you, but they had just begun working together in the summer. Jessica has not in the past (in her last years with Bryce) been consistent with her 3sal, but neither is Paige (3toe). It's always interesting to me that Jessica gets criticized for this, but L/S don't. Regardless...D/W scored better than L/S at Skate Canada, Jess is known internationally, and D/W's style is smoother with better lines. I think they'll do well internationally, if they execute their elements.

    I personally was hoping that D/W would not qualify this year for Worlds, so they could build their skills for another year before shooting for that goal. But they nailed most of their elements at Nats, so here we are.

    We are lucky to have 4 strong teams (plus a fifth coming up to senior next year). There won't be room for all of them at Worlds/Olys, but that hopefully will make them stronger as they compete with one another for those spots.

  9. #54
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callalily View Post
    I personally was hoping that D/W would not qualify this year for Worlds, so they could build their skills for another year before shooting for that goal. But they nailed most of their elements at Nats, so here we are.

    We are lucky to have 4 strong teams (plus a fifth coming up to senior next year). There won't be room for all of them at Worlds/Olys, but that hopefully will make them stronger as they compete with one another for those spots.
    This is 100% how I feel. I am actively trying to avoid picking a real favorite because I know I'm going to be so disappointed in the Oly year when only 3 (or god forbid 2) can make it.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I have to admit in the interest of full disclosure that unlike some I am a fan of Dube so maybe I'm a little biased myself. I do think that at the very least they didn't unravel under pressure which I do think bodes well. As for the jumps, it is true but the same could be said for many pairs teams (even possible MT/M). I guess we'll see. The situation is unfortunate as obviously it would be preferred that everyone had skated their best and the chips could have fallen where they may that way...
    Well I appreciate your disclosure and you are right that anyone can have issues with jumps. One thing for sure is that you can never predict what can happen. Even with top teams and there are no guarantees - so we will see where the chips fall. But at least we are having great discussions on this topic, LOL!

    ETA: Just read two posts above - tulosai and callily - and I have to agree that Dube/Wolfe have already achieved their goals for this year and will continue to grow - but now the pressure will be on at Worlds to get that 3rd spot....and what if they don't do well at 4CCs? I am playing devils advocate of course...
    Last edited by heyhey; 01-24-2012 at 01:38 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by swier View Post
    L/S had a great performance - especially now that we know Paige was skating with concussion. Sending them to Worlds and M-T/M ,D/R and D/W to 4CC would have given the injured team time to recover and still gave all four teams the chance to compete this season. Last year L/S peaked later in the season and won the bronze at 4CC.
    Seriously? She had a concussion? Those pairs girls are tough!


    The dance placements were very well done, I think. I don't see why this can't be done for pairs.

    4CC: D/R (to bring home the gold or at least a medal), D/W (to place well, get some experience and confidence internationally), and L/S (to give them some more international experience)

    Worlds: D/R (to finish around 5th), MT/M (because they have the most international ranking points compared to the other teams, only missed the GPF by a sliver, generally have had the most consistency throughout the season compared to the others, have more content than the others in the program to generate points, and have the strongest possibility of giving Canada 3 spots for pairs next season)

  12. #57
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I would have sent R&H to 4CC's as well as Worlds. But that's just me. R&H have had only one international outing this year. P&I have had 2, and at both they were disappointing. R&H are going to Worlds. They need the extra international exposure, particularly as they are so much improved from last year.

    I wrote about this here, so I won't retype it:

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post608393

    P&I do not impress me that much at this point.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I would have sent R&H to 4CC's as well as Worlds. But that's just me. R&H have had only one international outing this year. P&I have had 2, and at both they were disappointing. R&H are going to Worlds. They need the extra international exposure, particularly as they are so much improved from last year.

    I wrote about this here, so I won't retype it:

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post608393

    P&I do not impress me that much at this point.
    You forget to mention the fact that P/I were already dealing with one serious injury prior to the beginning of the season, pulled out of a number of summer competitions and missed a huge chunk of training in the months before Skate America where R/H beat them. They also managed to fall twice and trip once in the SD there, which put them so far down the ranking that they had no chance to redeem themselves, even though they skated a really nice FD there (which was scored painfully low despte the fact that the British Eurosport commentators were quite impressed). They never got to finish their second GP event because Alexandra was seriously injured yet again, which also means that they missed out on even more training prior to nationals. In spite of all of this, they managed to nearly beat R/H at nationals (with R/H being much improved over last season), even beating them in the FD.

    Considering that, as well as the fact they they essentially decimated R/H last season at nationals and in their international scores, I think SC was very wise to send them to 4CC. I think they have a really good chance of surpassing R/H next season provided they remain healthy, and this bit of exposure will do them good.

    Not liking their programs is one thing, but I think its unfair to judge them without considering how difficult their season has been.

  14. #59
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    It might not always be the case, but Skate Canada is smarter than USFSA on this team selection!
    It's a question of fairness to the skaters. If the situation between Phaneuf and LaCoste had been reversed we would not hear a peep about a skate-off at Four Continents.

    The only time USFS broke its own rule for sending ladies to Worlds was in 2008. Katrina Hacker finished ahead of Kimmie Meissner and should have gone to worlds. They sent Meissner, the 2006 world champion and 2007 U.S. champion instead. Meissner finished 7th at worlds, losing the U.S. its third spot, which has never been regained.

    See? The skate gods punished USFS for doing Hacker wrong.

  15. #60
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    Also, P/I and R/H have had the same number of international outings this season -- R/H did Nebelhorn. One could elevate the GP assignments above a Senior B, but given that P/I's NHK outing was obviously cut short by extenuating circumstances, I'm not sure they've necessarily had such greater experience this year than the others have.

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