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Thread: Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

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    Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

    Daisuke Takahashi had a perfect short at the Japanese National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziQ253eUi2I). Patrick Chan did the same at the Canadian National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Vtt...eature=related). Both landed the same jumps (4T3T, 3A, 3Lz). Both expressed dissatisfaction with their own performance in the interview. "My skating was just so-so," Daisuke said. "It may not have been the most solid...it wasn't a walk in the park," said Chan. Suppose the aforementioned performances occurred in the same competition, how would you have judged them? You may score them by element or rank them by holistic impression. I just want to hear your opinions. Thanks.

    Dai's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, FSSp, 3Lz, CCSp, SISt, CCoSp. (http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/...l/data0103.pdf)
    Chan's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, CCoSp, 3Lz, FSSp, CCSp, SlSt. (http://results.skatecanada.ca/2011-2...gesDetails.pdf)

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    Of course Patrick's is better. His footwork is more difficult (one foot skating).

    Just calculate the base value of the TES. Patrick's 42 vs. Dai's 41.
    Last edited by Boeing787; 01-25-2012 at 03:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Daisuke Takahashi had a perfect short at the Japanese National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziQ253eUi2I). Patrick Chan did the same at the Canadian National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Vtt...eature=related). Both landed the same jumps (4T3T, 3A, 3Lz). Both expressed dissatisfaction with their own performance in the interview. "My skating was just so-so," Daisuke said. "It may not have been the most solid...it wasn't a walk in the park," said Chan. Suppose the aforementioned performances occurred in the same competition, how would you have judged them? You may score them by element or rank them by holistic impression. I just want to hear your opinions. Thanks.

    Dai's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, FSSp, 3Lz, CCSp, SISt, CCoSp. (http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/...l/data0103.pdf)
    Chan's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, CCoSp, 3Lz, FSSp, CCSp, SlSt. (http://results.skatecanada.ca/2011-2...gesDetails.pdf)
    Tsk tsk tsk, you are opening a can of whoopass! I can sense the storm coming...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Tsk tsk tsk, you are opening a can of whoopass! I can sense the storm coming...
    And see who has come. A sly creature making all the hissing noises upon the smell of blood.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 01-25-2012 at 04:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Tsk tsk tsk, you are opening a can of whoopass! I can sense the storm coming...
    Why don't you open your can of whoopass - a thread comparing their LPs?

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    Oh come now - we should be able to discuss this. I haven't looked element for element. To me, Daisuke's skate was more interesting, choreographically and musically but there were a few times where the choreography and music didn't quite match. Patrick's was more straight forward, but everything worked together. Only watched once but Dai's 4x3 seemed a little smoother. Impression of spins is about the same. Patrick's footwork has more freedom. Really close, in this format I'd say a tie, if they were in the same competition I'd be going over those protocol sheets very carefully.

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    I hope they can both perform a SP (with same technical contents) as good as they did in their Nationals in the Worlds, then we will have a definite answer from the judges.

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    I normally would have given an edge to Dai in the Interpretation and Performance department, but this time I was surprised that after watching the two performances back to back, I actually enjoyed Chan's better. As Dai said in his interview, it wasn't his best performance. Still, it proved to me that Dai does not always excel in artistry. To my untrained eyes, Dai's jumps were smooth like butter. It puzzled me to see Chan's higher GOEs although Chan himself admitted his jumps did not come easy that day. I would assume the Canadian judges gave out GOEs like candy unless somebody with expertise is willing to analyze their jumps to me.

    Dai did not maximize his technical potential. He received a level 2 for one of his spins and a level 3 for his straight line footwork. I hope he is working on them.

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    I'd go with Patrick between those two performances.

    But I would go with Takahashi if he performs the program like he did at NHK, along with the Quad-Triple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I'd go with Patrick between those two performances. But I would go with Takahashi if he performs the program like he did at NHK, along with the Quad-Triple.
    Agreed. But can he? I hope he can. That would be a great treat.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 01-25-2012 at 07:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    I normally would have given an edge to Dai in the Interpretation and Performance department, but this time I was surprised that after watching the two performances back to back, I actually enjoyed Chan's better. As Dai said in his interview, it wasn't his best performance. Still, it proved to me that Dai does not always excel in artistry. To my untrained eyes, Dai's jumps were smooth like butter. It puzzled me to see Chan's higher GOEs although Chan himself admitted his jumps did not come easy that day. I would assume the Canadian judges gave out GOEs like candy unless somebody with expertise is willing to analyze their jumps to me.
    I totally agree with you here. Chan's jumps looked forced in the SP his 3A did not deserve +2.5 GOE. I did prefer Chan's SP I think because I like his music more then Dai's. I think both do not have the most attractive spins though. I liked Chan's footwork better because it flowed more, no stops like Dai's footwork, but for some reason it seemed like it looked easier than Daisuke's, maybe my eyes are fooling me b/c all of the stopping. Can someone break down the steps in each of their footworks for me please and thank you :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    I totally agree with you here. Chan's jumps looked forced in the SP his 3A did not deserve +2.5 GOE. I did prefer Chan's SP I think because I like his music more then Dai's. I think both do not have the most attractive spins though. I liked Chan's footwork better because it flowed more, no stops like Dai's footwork, but for some reason it seemed like it looked easier than Daisuke's, maybe my eyes are fooling me b/c all of the stopping. Can someone break down the steps in each of their footworks for me please and thank you :D
    He makes it look easy not because it's easy. Big difference on this nuance here. As a rule of thumb, a footwork sequence done entirely on one foot across the length of the rink is always considered more difficult than one that is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    He makes it look easy not because it's easy. Big difference on this nuance here. As a rule of thumb, a footwork sequence done entirely on one foot across the length of the rink is always considered more difficult than one that is not.
    Who else does a one foot sequence down the length of the rink? in 12 seconds? More skaters, male and female, are now doing one foot sequences and they look like they are doing a lot of stuff but actually cover a tiny distance or area.

    Chan simply moves with an amazing ease without any apparent work or effort, yet with more speed and ice coverage than anyone else. He's faster on one foot than others on both, stroking away. It's hard work, what David Pelletier calls "Leg Burner".
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 01-25-2012 at 08:30 PM.

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    Man, this is like a candy store for skate fans. I love Daisuke but also admire Chan, and my dearest wish is that both men skate their best at Worlds, leaving it all on the ice. Then let the judges agonize. I've watched Chan's amazing long program from Canadian nationals, and it was just stupendous. Then I went and watched Dai skate a program. All I can say is, the age of skating greatness is not in the past! When either of these two guys is on the ice, we're watching the thunder and lightning of a golden age.

    Chan's one-foot footwork is truly glorious, isn't it? And I love his knees. But Daisuke's musicality is incomparable as well. Oh, my paws and whiskers! Do we have to pick just one?

    I can't wait to hear what you all have to say as you analyze. It will give me more to look for.
    Last edited by Olympia; 01-25-2012 at 08:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Who else does a one foot sequence down the length of the rink? in 12 seconds? More skaters, male and female, are now doing one foot sequences and they look like they are doing a lot of stuff but actually cover a tiny distance or area.
    Here is an example of a skater who frantically tries to paddle his way through a footwork sequence like a drowning duckling:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbHq6e93nU#t=1m18s

    It may seem like he is doing a lot but in fact, the steps don't flow and many were executed at almost stand-still, which make them very easy to do. In my opinion, this is a low quality footwork sequence because they are slow and show poor edge quality. Frantic upper body movement can be distracting to a solid footwork sequence but unfortunately, they sometimes work too well to camouflage a skater's weakness, just ask Maurizio Margaglio.

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