Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's | Golden Skate

Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Daisuke Takahashi had a perfect short at the Japanese National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziQ253eUi2I). Patrick Chan did the same at the Canadian National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61VttCq5NSE&feature=related). Both landed the same jumps (4T3T, 3A, 3Lz). Both expressed dissatisfaction with their own performance in the interview. "My skating was just so-so," Daisuke said. "It may not have been the most solid...it wasn't a walk in the park," said Chan. Suppose the aforementioned performances occurred in the same competition, how would you have judged them? You may score them by element or rank them by holistic impression. I just want to hear your opinions. Thanks.

Dai's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, FSSp, 3Lz, CCSp, SISt, CCoSp. (http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/2011-2012/fs_e/national/data0103.pdf)
Chan's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, CCoSp, 3Lz, FSSp, CCSp, SlSt. (http://results.skatecanada.ca/2011-2012/2012CDNS/2012CDNSSrMenShortsegJudgesDetails.pdf)
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Of course Patrick's is better. His footwork is more difficult (one foot skating).

Just calculate the base value of the TES. Patrick's 42 vs. Dai's 41.
 
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jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Daisuke Takahashi had a perfect short at the Japanese National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziQ253eUi2I). Patrick Chan did the same at the Canadian National (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61VttCq5NSE&feature=related). Both landed the same jumps (4T3T, 3A, 3Lz). Both expressed dissatisfaction with their own performance in the interview. "My skating was just so-so," Daisuke said. "It may not have been the most solid...it wasn't a walk in the park," said Chan. Suppose the aforementioned performances occurred in the same competition, how would you have judged them? You may score them by element or rank them by holistic impression. I just want to hear your opinions. Thanks.

Dai's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, FSSp, 3Lz, CCSp, SISt, CCoSp. (http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/2011-2012/fs_e/national/data0103.pdf)
Chan's elements: 4T+3T, 3A, CCoSp, 3Lz, FSSp, CCSp, SlSt. (http://results.skatecanada.ca/2011-2012/2012CDNS/2012CDNSSrMenShortsegJudgesDetails.pdf)

Tsk tsk tsk, you are opening a can of whoopass! I can sense the storm coming...
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Oh come now - we should be able to discuss this. I haven't looked element for element. To me, Daisuke's skate was more interesting, choreographically and musically but there were a few times where the choreography and music didn't quite match. Patrick's was more straight forward, but everything worked together. Only watched once but Dai's 4x3 seemed a little smoother. Impression of spins is about the same. Patrick's footwork has more freedom. Really close, in this format I'd say a tie, if they were in the same competition I'd be going over those protocol sheets very carefully.
 

Kelly

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
I hope they can both perform a SP (with same technical contents) as good as they did in their Nationals in the Worlds, then we will have a definite answer from the judges.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I normally would have given an edge to Dai in the Interpretation and Performance department, but this time I was surprised that after watching the two performances back to back, I actually enjoyed Chan's better. As Dai said in his interview, it wasn't his best performance. Still, it proved to me that Dai does not always excel in artistry. To my untrained eyes, Dai's jumps were smooth like butter. It puzzled me to see Chan's higher GOEs although Chan himself admitted his jumps did not come easy that day. I would assume the Canadian judges gave out GOEs like candy unless somebody with expertise is willing to analyze their jumps to me.

Dai did not maximize his technical potential. He received a level 2 for one of his spins and a level 3 for his straight line footwork. I hope he is working on them.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I'd go with Patrick between those two performances.

But I would go with Takahashi if he performs the program like he did at NHK, along with the Quad-Triple.
 

FTnoona

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
I normally would have given an edge to Dai in the Interpretation and Performance department, but this time I was surprised that after watching the two performances back to back, I actually enjoyed Chan's better. As Dai said in his interview, it wasn't his best performance. Still, it proved to me that Dai does not always excel in artistry. To my untrained eyes, Dai's jumps were smooth like butter. It puzzled me to see Chan's higher GOEs although Chan himself admitted his jumps did not come easy that day. I would assume the Canadian judges gave out GOEs like candy unless somebody with expertise is willing to analyze their jumps to me.

I totally agree with you here. Chan's jumps looked forced in the SP his 3A did not deserve +2.5 GOE. I did prefer Chan's SP I think because I like his music more then Dai's. I think both do not have the most attractive spins though. I liked Chan's footwork better because it flowed more, no stops like Dai's footwork, but for some reason it seemed like it looked easier than Daisuke's, maybe my eyes are fooling me b/c all of the stopping. Can someone break down the steps in each of their footworks for me please and thank you :D
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I totally agree with you here. Chan's jumps looked forced in the SP his 3A did not deserve +2.5 GOE. I did prefer Chan's SP I think because I like his music more then Dai's. I think both do not have the most attractive spins though. I liked Chan's footwork better because it flowed more, no stops like Dai's footwork, but for some reason it seemed like it looked easier than Daisuke's, maybe my eyes are fooling me b/c all of the stopping. Can someone break down the steps in each of their footworks for me please and thank you :D

He makes it look easy not because it's easy. Big difference on this nuance here. As a rule of thumb, a footwork sequence done entirely on one foot across the length of the rink is always considered more difficult than one that is not.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
He makes it look easy not because it's easy. Big difference on this nuance here. As a rule of thumb, a footwork sequence done entirely on one foot across the length of the rink is always considered more difficult than one that is not.

Who else does a one foot sequence down the length of the rink? in 12 seconds? More skaters, male and female, are now doing one foot sequences and they look like they are doing a lot of stuff but actually cover a tiny distance or area.

Chan simply moves with an amazing ease without any apparent work or effort, yet with more speed and ice coverage than anyone else. He's faster on one foot than others on both, stroking away. It's hard work, what David Pelletier calls "Leg Burner".
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Man, this is like a candy store for skate fans. I love Daisuke but also admire Chan, and my dearest wish is that both men skate their best at Worlds, leaving it all on the ice. Then let the judges agonize. I've watched Chan's amazing long program from Canadian nationals, and it was just stupendous. Then I went and watched Dai skate a program. All I can say is, the age of skating greatness is not in the past! When either of these two guys is on the ice, we're watching the thunder and lightning of a golden age.

Chan's one-foot footwork is truly glorious, isn't it? And I love his knees. But Daisuke's musicality is incomparable as well. Oh, my paws and whiskers! Do we have to pick just one?

I can't wait to hear what you all have to say as you analyze. It will give me more to look for.
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Who else does a one foot sequence down the length of the rink? in 12 seconds? More skaters, male and female, are now doing one foot sequences and they look like they are doing a lot of stuff but actually cover a tiny distance or area.

Here is an example of a skater who frantically tries to paddle his way through a footwork sequence like a drowning duckling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVbHq6e93nU#t=1m18s

It may seem like he is doing a lot but in fact, the steps don't flow and many were executed at almost stand-still, which make them very easy to do. In my opinion, this is a low quality footwork sequence because they are slow and show poor edge quality. Frantic upper body movement can be distracting to a solid footwork sequence but unfortunately, they sometimes work too well to camouflage a skater's weakness, just ask Maurizio Margaglio.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Man, this is like a candy store for skate fans. I love Daisuke but also admire Chan, and my dearest wish is that both men skate their best at Worlds, leaving it all on the ice. Then let the judges agonize. I've watched Chan's amazing long program from Canadian nationals, and it was just stupendous. Then I went and watched Dai skate a program. All I can say is, the age of skating greatness is not in the past! When either of these two guys is on the ice, we're watching the thunder and lightning of a golden age.

Chan's one-foot footwork is truly glorious, isn't it? And I love his knees. But Daisuke's musicality is incomparable as well. Oh, my paws and whiskers! Do we have to pick just one?

I can't wait to hear what you all have to say as you analyze. It will give me more to look for.

This!!!

I'm struggling a bit with this - totally hats off to the one foot footwork, with the speed and power, and edges it had. I'm still thinking, but think i give a nod to chan on this comparison; however, OMG I so look forward to seeing them both at worlds. I really really really really hope they can bring us shorts and longs with this caliber of skating because if they do, it will be the "stuff" of lore.
 

SGrand

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Who else does a one foot sequence down the length of the rink? in 12 seconds? More skaters, male and female, are now doing one foot sequences and they look like they are doing a lot of stuff but actually cover a tiny distance or area.

Chan simply moves with an amazing ease without any apparent work or effort, yet with more speed and ice coverage than anyone else. He's faster on one foot than others on both, stroking away. It's hard work, what David Pelletier calls "Leg Burner".

I love watching his footwork and find it fascinating in slow-mo because it's really not that slow and seems to be the same speed as other skaters lol. Am I making any sense here?
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Takahashi: I go back and forth between this and his Olympic SP as his greatest short program. The peaks this one hits are higher, but I think the earlier program sustains itself better. Love the opening – there’s a cool fire to the movements. He’s absolutely in command. Then he explodes into that 4-3. Love his gestures throughout the next sequence. The triple axel is an absolute corker. His first spin, while not amazing, is so well matched to the percussive beats that it’s amazing. His footwork leading into the triple lutz (and then his exit transition) is glorious. Again, love the timing of the second spin, matching the ululating of the vocals perfectly. The expressive passion of Dai is perfectly matched to the choreography. The program loses a bit striving for that level four footwork, and his final spin is just okay, so unfortunately it loses a little oomph.

Chan: In many respects, this program is the reverse. It has that wow finish that lifts it up. Firstly, his skating skills are divine. I respond most to blade work, and this program is so cannily designed to show that off. Look at how deeply he carves the ice leading into that quad combo! The playful insouciance of this program is just a delight (the little kick he gives in the sequence heading into the 3A is cute). He does the same thing as Dai does in trying to match his first spin to the percussive beat, but it doesn’t work as well. Thankfully, he’s a better spinner so it ends well. The steps leading into his triple lutz is just a gem. We enter what, for me, is the weaker section of the program, with the two spins back-to-back. In order to get that wow moment, he quickly ticks the boxes and moves on. But if you’ve got footwork like his.... well, I don’t really blame him. He’s really such a show off here (yeah, I can do this, and this... oh yeah, and this). This footwork is practically flirtatious. The little leg wiggle he gives (now in the two foot section) - priceless. The speed he carries down the ice and the distance he covers is absolutely sick. The hop into his footwork, the twizzling. Amazing. And the ending, just pitch perfect punctuation.

So, pick your poison. If we were talking classic movies, Dai’s would be Make Way for Tomorrow and Pat’s would be The Awful Truth. Both are amazing and are exemplars of the form. In film, I prefer Make Way for Tomorrow, and I’ll echo that here with the skating. Doesn’t mean my scores would reflect that, though.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
IPogue you brought up a choreographic difference that makes me question Dai's program's design. Dai's busy footwork is fabulous and entertaining, also cleverly camouflaging his slower flow and sometimes less steady blade while showcasing his flair and musicality. However, while Patrick ends his program with a punctuating snap after an impressive display of footwork prowess, Dai actually ends with his weak element, a spin, especially the layback that usually doesn't get him a high level and may likely be less impressive to the judges. At this level of competition, such details matter.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Dai actually ends with his weak element, a spin, especially the layback that usually doesn't get him a high level and may likely be less impressive to the judges. At this level of competition, such details matter.
You mean the spin combination that he received a level 4 whereas Chan got a level 3?
 
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