Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Boeing787 said:

Of course a choreographer has to be a skater first. I was referring to sakters who do their competition numbers.

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To a certain extent, all skaters have input into their choreography. It's a collaboration between the choreographer and the skater, to different extents. In the COP system, it's probably and especially not wise to choreograph one's own programs completely on one's own. There are reasons some choreographers are sought after, for their creativity as well as COP expertise.

If you see an established choreographer with creativity, please let me know who it is. Most of the established choreographers seem to recycle the same moves over and over.

OTOH, I've got to say, I love Timothy Dolensky's SP, which he both wrote the music for and performed himself. But I believe he had someone else choreograph it?

SkateFiguring said:

To a certain extent, all skaters have input into their choreography. It's a collaboration between the choreographer and the skater, to different extents.

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When I see Jeffrey Buttle's programs, I see Jeffrey Buttle. When I see Yuna Kim's programs, I see David Wilson.
When I see Michelle Kwan's programs, I see Michelle Kwan. When I see Patrick Chan's programs, I see Lori Nichole.
When I see Carolina Kostner's programs, I see nobody (Don't kill me for saying that ).

Olympia said:

I'm curious about how tough and detailed Saint-Saens is to perform. Is he as fiendish as, say, Rachmaninoff?

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Rachmaninoff is surely a devil deliberately cruel to the pianist. Such a satanic intent is shown, for example, in the toccata-like cadenza of his Concerto No. 3, 1st movement that imposes a torturous demand on the dexterity of the performer's fingers. In contrast, the written-out cadenza of Saint-Saens' Concerto No.2, 1st movement is to me one of the easy parts albeit fast and showy and impressive. In other words, their intents are different: one is for the virtuosic display, and the other for the ornamental impact.

In my opinion, difficulty level should not be always measured by dexterity. Sometimes it concerns the demand on the pianist's brain and magical touch. For instance, the slow section I gave as an example in my post #170 is something a beginner would say "Hey, even I can play." Yet, I find it very challenging. It is the part that Saint-Saens demands "molto espressivo" (very expressive), the ability of speaking one thousand words with just a few notes. Furthermore, the score demands that the bass octaves last at least half of each bar. Well, that's humanly impossible since there is something going on elsewhere that needs the left hand as well. One way is to use the sustaining pedal. The young prodigy Hugo Kitano (www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-thJDlnMyM#t=1m000s) gave short pedals and sacrificed the bass for clarity. As a result, it ended up being somewhat "dry". Marc-André Hamelin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6fErWrQpvI&feature=related#t=8m000s) on the other hand gave long pedals to hold the bass fully but took the risk of compromising clarity and harmony. To compensate that, he mindfully made the timber of the call melody drastically different from the answer melody so as to increase contrast and thus clarity. The result is that he produced a velvety section rich in magical tone colors. How did I handle that dilemma? Hehe, I cheated. Not only did I add pedals, but also in some places I used my right hand to cover some tasks meant for the left hand so my left hand could hold those bass octaves long enough!!! And there are more challenges in that "simple" section. I will not mention them now, otherwise it will be a long thesis.

Thanks so much, BC! I will listen to those parts of the concerto with your details in mind.

I'm fond of the French repertoire. I almost always recognize its stamp even if I don't know the work being played. There seems to be a French quality to works from about Berlioz on, in symphonic and chamber music and opera as well, not to mention songs. I often think of it as a nocturnal quality; don't know why. Not that they all sound alike!

You've kind of confirmed my understanding of Rachmaninoff. (Since we're speaking of choreography, I'll tie this to the topic by requesting a moratorium on his piano concerti as skating music! Branch out, people.) One thing I noticed about him as I came to know things like his symphonies is that for a virtuoso, he is also a tremendous orchestrator. I just adore his second symphony. Wouldn't it be nice to see someone skate to parts from that work, or his cello sonata. I always love that opening part of Nichol's choreography for Michelle's SP in 1998, which I think comes from the first elegiac trio before moving into the piano concerto. I used to love the way Nichol cut music for Michelle. I'm not sure she's done that kind of subtle work for anyone else.

Boeing787 said:

On a 2nd thought, a skater can be a good choreographer too, Christopher Dean is a good example.

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Many skaters have become good choreographers after they've done their own skating. I've never seen any self-choreographed competitive programs that were as good as the professional choreographers' work. Not Sasha Cohen's, not Johnny Weir's, not Jeremy Abbott's. Jeffrey Buttle might be the best self-choreographer of all after I saw his Improv Ice programs. Abbott's and Bradley's were among the worst. Sorry, Abbott fans! Even Rachael Flatt was better in that.

SkateFiguring said:

To a certain extent, all skaters have input into their choreography. It's a collaboration between the choreographer and the skater, to different extents.

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Definitely!:yes:

You clearly never saw Braden Overett's PotC program which won the choreographic award from USFS. It was one of the BEST choreographed IJS program I have ever seen.

mskater93 said:

You clearly never saw Braden Overett's PotC program which won the choreographic award from USFS. It was one of the BEST choreographed IJS program I have ever seen.

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No, I haven't. Link please!

You should be able to go to Youtube and search on Braden Overett. I am at work and can't go to Youtube here...I will try and link from home later. His step sequence to start the program completely embodied Captain Jack and fullfilled the bullets at the time for a difficult step sequence.

Braden Overett belongs to Hot Men or Handsome Skaters threads. :thumbsup:

mskater93 said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae6M2jTQGG8

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Not bad!:yes:

Thank you so much for the link!

SkateFiguring said:

When Takahashi fell three times in his LP right after this near flawless SP, just about everybody was respectful enough not to dwell on it.

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You are cheating here. Dai didn't win LP with 3 falls. Chan wins no matter how many times he zamboni's the ice. That is what annoys people the most.

let`s talk said:

You are cheating here. Dai didn't win LP with 3 falls. Chan wins no matter how many times he zamboni's the ice. That is what annoys people the most.

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Takahashi lost LP was because his TES base value in LP was way less than Hanyu and Kozuka. He won every single category in PCS over clean Hanyu and one-fall Kozuka with his three falls. If that wasn't annoying, then why Chan's was annoying and analysed in split-hair? First attacked his TES. When it was responded with convincing facts and nothing to pick on, it turned on his PCS as if Chan was the only one who received such treatment. Isn't that clear who's biased?! I see nothing wrong in SkateFiguring's quote which you've quoted.

SkateFiguring said:

I think Jeremy has a healthy ego. It was too weak before for a champion.

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I read comment on YouTube (ok, not reliable there), but still want to find out. The comment said that Jeremy said he didn't get Chan's National score, but he go Chan's normal competition score. Did he really say that? I mean, he doesn't think his score was already inflated?

jettasian said:

I read comment on YouTube (ok, not reliable there), but still want to find out. The comment said that Jeremy said he didn't get Chan's National score, but he go Chan's normal competition score. Did he really say that? I mean, he doesn't think his score was already inflated?

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I read from another source he said international competition instead of normal competition.

jettasian said:

I read comment on YouTube (ok, not reliable there), but still want to find out. The comment said that Jeremy said he didn't get Chan's National score, but he go Chan's normal competition score. Did he really say that? I mean, he doesn't think his score was already inflated?

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I think it's fine with whatever he thinks. If this attitude could give him a world medal, this will be the right attitude for him.:yes:

I don't mix personalities and attitude with performances and competition results. Skaters need to adopt whatever attitude that works for them, as long as they don't slander or make up untruths about their rivals. It's good Jeremy is pumping himself up, as his past mindset really didn't work for him. However, he is still trying to convince himself, not a natural with commending presence and attitude on ice like Yagudin, Plushenko, Joubert, etc., or a presence with cool focus like Browning, Chan, Lambert, etc.

OTOH, It's not professional for writers to directly compare his Nationals scores to others' international scores, claiming his to be in the class with Chan's and Plushenko's record scores. In Canada, Chan's Nationals scores are always called national records with an explanation that they are not official with ISU.

Based on what I read from YouTube (again, can be misleading), what he said seem to imply that only Patrick's National score was inflated but not his. Just want to find out if anyone heard anything.

Even if Patrick's National scores were inflated, it's not by much. At World last year, he got 93 for Short and 188 for Long. He stepped out the 3A in the Long, if not, he'd probably get 192-195? And with the better program and artistry for this year, I'd say his National's score was pretty reasonable. And for the Short, the new footwork, faster 1 foot skate and overall improvement from last year, I'd say it's worth probably 95-98.

So 4CC scores will count right? If Patrick skates like he did at National, I think he might break his own record.