Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 3, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
Oh, I do think it's a very real charge that Chan doesn't deserve those scores even when he skates great, though. If Chan is getting 97 for PCS, then how is someone who has much better choreography and interpretation and performance ability ever supposed to compete against him? Or, more importantly, how does that give anyone the incentive to try and be more artistic? This kind of judging makes it all come down to who does better technically, not an actual split of technical and artistic.

Your theoretical equation of the difference between TES and PCS = the degree to which someone was held up still doesn't have much validity either. When people are held up on the PCS, they can still be getting held up on TES at the same time. Or, conversely, they can be getting held up on the PCS because of their TES being strong. Moreover, someone having low TES and high PCS doesn't necessarily mean they were held up anyway. Giving a phenomenal performance doesn't automatically being being technically phenomenal.

I'm not sure what the purpose of your statement is then, if that's what you're changing it to. It's not a bad for someone's PCS to be higher than their TES if they give a great performance; that is in fact something which should happen more often, but doesn't, as a result of lower-ranked skaters being held down on the PCS because of a lack of technical content or reputation/momentum! Chan's PCS contributing less to his TSS than Takahashi's simply means that he is doing better technically...or that he is being held up more technically. It doesn't mean Takahashi is being "held up" more, especially since the general feeling is that he SHOULD be scoring higher in the PCS than Chan anyway (or at least should have higher PCS than TES in comparison to Chan to begin with, since Chan has a more difficult jump layout).

The only way to prove such statements is to analyze the performances themselves and come to your own conclusions about whether or not a skater was held up.

1. I agree the charge is there. But then we see it come down to personal opinion on artistry and the like, and we can't accuse Skate Canada of being the mafia merely because we disagree with them (which I'm not saying you're doing). For example, I don't agree that Hanyu has much better choreography/interpretation/performance ability than Chan, whereas you do. I do think you're more knowledgeable about the sport than I am and would be inclined to question my own judgement here (and have in the past), but I don't think my opinion comes out of being politicked (I won't deny rooting for the home favourite, but I'll also point out that I prefered Takahashi's SP to Chan's, so I hope you don't dismiss me as a mindless uber)

2. Again, I've posted that you can be overscored on GOEs, which to me is stating that you can be held up on TES.

3. My point with the change more generally? I'll pm you that.

skatinginbc · Feb 4, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
"Blues for Klook" is certainly more complex musically than "Aranjeuz"!!!

Boeing787 said:
Arnajuez is more...complicated musically with the cadenza of the guitar.

"Blues for Klook" is rhythmically more complex, although Arnajuez, following the classical tradition, has higher contrapuntal density. The former progresses in an improvising fashion with asymmetrical phrasing while the latter has clear, symmetrical, reoccurring themes and variations. Modern music has shifted its focus from melodies, motives and harmony to textures, timbre, time, and space. It's like comparing an impressionist painting with an abstract art. Which is more musically complex? It's hard to say, but the fact that "Blues for Klook" does not have clear tonal melodies certainly brings challenges to the performer.

Blades of Passion · Feb 4, 2012

skatinginbc said:
"Blues for Klook" is rhythmically more complex, although Arnajuez, following the classical tradition, has higher contrapuntal density. The former progresses in an improvising fashion with asymmetrical phrasing while the latter has clear, symmetrical, reoccurring themes and variations. Modern music has shifted its focus from melodies, motives and harmony to textures, timbre, time, and space.

Is it really accurate to say that Aranjuez even has higher contrapuntal density, though? I mean if we look at the amount of notes within the busiest segment of "Blues for Klook", there would be more notes on the page than the busiest section of Aranjuez, no (the version Chan is using anyway)? Not that it's relevant to how good the choreography/interpretation is anyway, or even the difficulty of choreography (you could choreograph some very difficult held-out moves and transitions for simple music), but I'd be interested in hearing more since I don't write music.

skatinginbc · Feb 4, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
Is it really accurate to say that Aranjuez even has higher contrapuntal density, though? I mean if we look at the amount of notes within the busiest segment of "Blues for Klook", there would be more notes on the page than the busiest section of Aranjuez, no (the version Chan is using anyway)?

Contrapuntal density is not about how many notes within a time frame. Instead, it concerns the number of voices (counterpoints).

Anyway, to me, Blues for Klook seems a difficult piece to skate well to. It sounds monotonous and yet in fact lacks repetition. Aranjuez on the other hand is strewn with repetitive motives/melodies and is thus easier for the ear to grasp. Trained in classical music, I naturally lean toward Aranjuez, but I can appreciate why Blues for Klook may pose a challenge for choreographers/performers. Imagine the challenge one faces when skating to the bee's hum. :biggrin:

let`s talk · Feb 4, 2012

jettasian said:
Chan's skating skills and transitions ARE always superior to Dai.

Just because you keep saying that, doesn't mean it's true. Same as you keep saying Dai is overscored proves nothing other that your typical bias toward Dai.

Now observe how your banal cliche you-all-bias works. :laugh:

jettasian · Feb 4, 2012

let`s talk said:
Just because you keep saying that, doesn't mean it's true. Same as you keep saying Dai is overscored proves nothing other that your typical bias toward Dai.

Now observe how your banal cliche you-all-bias works.

It's not because I keep saying that, it's a known fact from the judges, from the people who actually watch skating, unless someone who has nothing to say but just like to stir troubles, Chan-bashing whenever they can, and spread lies and baseless accusations.

Blades of Passion · Feb 4, 2012

It's not a "known fact". Seriously, just stop.

skatinginbc said:
Contrapuntal density is not about how many notes within a time frame. Instead, it concerns the number of voices (counterpoints).

But there aren't ever more than 2 going on at once (the same as in "Blues for Klook") in Chan's version of Aranjeuz, are there? There are a greater variety of voices used throughout the piece but not all at the same time. It's always guitar+string or horn+string or guitar+horn or string+woodwind. Or am I not recalling this correctly?

Dragonlady · Feb 4, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
I never automatically give anyone a pass or a fail. I look at every program and performance and judge it as it is. In fact, I tend to have polar opposite opinions on the programs of skaters from season to season. It doesn't really matter who they are, that's not what I care about it and it's extremely tiresome that the only argument anyone can ever come up with is "oh, you're just biased against Patrick." Um, yeah, I'm biased in the sense that he rarely performs at a level I consider to be deserving of some of the scores he receives. Should I instead lie and pretend to love his work and be in agreement with competition results?

I have also noticed a bias in your posts in regard to Lori Nichols choreography. You don't seem to think much of Nichols choreography and criticize it at every turn. This renders your opinions of programs choreographed by Nichol as moot.

I love Takahashi and his ability to become the music. But I also recognize that he is doing less complex choreography with less detail that Patrick. Both skaters are prone to making mistakes, but then they are doing more difficult elements than nearly everybody else. And Takahashi is more prone to letting his performance go when his jumps aren't solid. Patrick never gives up on his program which is why his PCS tends to hold up better with mistakes.

Blades of Passion · Feb 4, 2012

Dragonlady said:
I have also noticed a bias in your posts in regard to Lori Nichols choreography. You don't seem to think much of Nichols choreography and criticize it at every turn. This renders your opinions of programs choreographed by Nichol as moot.

More fail reasoning. Not caring for much of Lori's recent work doesn't mean I have any kind of misplaced bias. It means I don't like the work, for the exact reasons I always describe.

Do you even understand how criticism works? Someone's view is not "rendered moot" as a result of not exalting a popular person constantly. There are a sizable number of Hollywood films released every year that make $200+ million dollars and quite a lot of them receive poor reviews overall. That doesn't mean the critics' opinions are rendered worthless by the financial success of the product (although certain studio executives would have you think that way, as you are trying to do here).

People seem to be mistaking bias with an informed opinion. The bias here is rather your own FOR Lori's work, since you always defend it as perfect without any relevant reasoning.

jettasian · Feb 4, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
It's not a "known fact". Seriously, just stop.

Just because you refuse to see or accept it, that doesn't mean it's untrue. And this is coming from someone who thinks Jason Brown is already better artisically than Chan has ever done. I have to laugh everytime I type this.

seniorita · Feb 4, 2012

jettasian said:
When someone's mind is already made up (you know, already fixated to believe "Chan will win no matter what", "Chan's mark will always be inflated", "Chan will win with 10 falls", "Chan has 4 falls cushions" etc), facts will never going to convince them. And regardless how Chan skates, the result for them is always the same.

jettasian said:
Yeah, Chan gets high marks because all the judges in the world have a hidden agenda.

Do judges have a secret agenda for Daisuke, or do they overscore all other skaters but coming to Chan are objective? I ll keep that post of yours for future reference, just in case for the 4cc or later.

Tonichelle · Feb 4, 2012

jettasian said:
Just because you refuse to see or accept it, that doesn't mean it's untrue. And this is coming from someone who thinks Jason Brown is already better artisically than Chan has ever done. I have to laugh everytime I type this.

again, doesn't this go both ways?

skatinginbc · Feb 4, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
But there aren't ever more than 2 going on at once (the same as in "Blues for Klook") in Chan's version of Aranjeuz, are there? There are a greater variety of voices used throughout the piece but not all at the same time.

Hm, a lay person can usually catch only two or three voices at a time. So how can I explain this? Let me try:
Exercise #1: Listen to the guitar alone. There are two different voices. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv4TWYesMBE#t=5m000s) Now, pay attention to the background. Can you hear the violin? So there are three voices going on at once in that section.
Exercise #2: It starts with chords (six notes simultaneously at every stroke) made by the guitar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv4TWYesMBE#t=0m036s) to accompany the dominant melodic voice (the oboe) that comes moments later, soon joined by the violins II and cellos, and shortly violins I and violas....

Olympia · Feb 4, 2012

Okay, BC, I don't have music training, just years of self-taught listening, so you'll have to break it down for me. When you say there are two voices in the guitar alone, do you mean (because I couldn't catch it in that little extract) that two strings are being plucked at once, or that when a single note is plucked, it has undertone vibrations that are another note? (I recall one junior high school music class where the teacher hit a note on the piano and made us listen for the other tones.) I know that acoustic guitar is especially good for learning about this kind of thing, because it's got such clear vibrations; it's not some synthesized electronic construct.

Sorry to butt in, but I can't figure this out for myself. Thanks!

jettasian · Feb 4, 2012

seniorita said:
Do judges have a secret agenda for Daisuke, or do they overscore all other skaters but coming to Chan are objective? I ll keep that post of yours for future reference, just in case for the 4cc or later.

Huh? I advise you read the whole post before making any assumption.

jettasian · Feb 4, 2012

Tonichelle said:
again, doesn't this go both ways?

Not really. I don't make assumptions and declare those as facts.

skatinginbc · Feb 4, 2012

Olympia said:
When you say there are two voices in the guitar alone, do you mean (because I couldn't catch it in that little extract) that two strings are being plucked at once..

In Exercise #1, the second melody comes a quaver later an octave higher than the first (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC91sfBYCF4#t=9m023s).

Olympia · Feb 4, 2012

Okay, thanks, BC.

Blades of Passion · Feb 4, 2012

Interesting, BC. Those aspects of music are things I'd probably like to take classes on if I could find the time. I used to do singing competitions and know how to read some music, but there's a whole lot more out there to learn (and I have to kick myself for not trying to learn the piano and guitar as a kid).

skatinginbc · Feb 4, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
I used to do singing competitions and know how to read some music....

Actually, your questioning about the contrapuntal density of Aranjeuz is not completely wrong. Compared to Baroque music, Aranjeuz makes minimal use of counterpoints. Even Exercise #1 is a very simple type of canon, nothing fancy about it. I think the composer feared that the guitar might be overwhelmed by the orchestra if too many voices are present.

Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

ImaginaryPogue

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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

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